Episode 45: Don’t Speak: 20 Things You Shouldn’t Say to a Trauma Survivor

It seems like everyone has an opinion about everything, whether those opinions are educated and well-informed or not. If you’re a trauma survivor you’ve probably heard them all, everything from victim-blaming to toxic positivity and everything in between. Some of the people who are spouting these opinions are  willfully ignorant and abusive while others are well-intentioned but ill-equipped to help. One thing is for sure though, there are some things we all wish we’d never have to hear again. Join us as we discuss some of these hot button phrases and maybe send this episode along to anyone who you wish would just zip-it for once. If you enjoy the podcast don’t forget to subscribe and please leave us a rating and review. And if you’d like to support us on Patreon you can find us here. Thanks for listening!

Welcome to the Different Functional Podcast where we explore the triumphs and challenges of trauma recovery and being neurodivergent in a neurotypical world. In today's episode, we're going to be talking all about things you should never say to a trauma survivor. 

I am Autumn, the older sister, and I think one of the things that's been said to me and that I've heard said to other survivors that just annoys the ever-living shit out of me is the concept - Oh, well, you don't need to process it. You just need to be stronger and overcome it. You just need to learn how to lock it in a box and move forward. You know, don't look back, just move forward and it will be fine. 

And I think this annoys the shit out of me because one, it suggests that, I don't know, you can lock it in a box, but also like a complete lack of self-awareness. Because when you do lock it in a box, really what you're doing is just choosing to not be aware of how trauma is affecting you, which means you are allowing the effects of that trauma to play out in your relationship. So you're essentially saying, Oh, I'm not going to deal with my trauma, but I'll let everybody else in my life have to deal with the effects of it. 

So I hate when people suggest that that is an option that I or other trauma survivors should use. It drives me fucking nuts. I don't know. Maybe it works for some people I don't know, but I have not yet seen this method successfully used in my life. 

 IVY 

 1:31 

I’ll go out on a limb here and say that it doesn't work for anybody. It's a bit of a dick move because there is collateral damage. Other people are affected by it because when you don't deal with your trauma, it does bleed out of you everywhere and onto other people. And there's really, as far as I can tell, no way to avoid that. If you are refusing to acknowledge your trauma, refusing to process your trauma, or refusing to try to work on it or heal from it, it has to come out somewhere and it does tend to be taken out on everybody around you. So moral of the story there is just deal with your shit. 

I am Ivy, the younger sister who (I am apparently starting out this episode on a combative note) think that one bothers me so much because there have been too many people in my life who have done that shit. Our parents being among them. Neither of them really dealt with their issues at all. Our father especially did not deal with his issues and was therefore just a jerk to everybody around him, but saw himself constantly as being blameless that he was not the issue, but he else was. So that's that was kind of a trigger in one for me. 

I will say, though, from my personal experience, the one that always bothered me, most people would say to me was when I was like a teenager and somebody would say, You're trying to grow up too fast, you're too serious. You should be having fun with your friends. You should be enjoying life. You should be in high school. You should be having all of those experiences. You'll regret not having them. You'll regret not being a child. And in my head, I was. I would always think, too late, that ship has sailed. 

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm sure you mean well. But really, you're just rubbing it in my face right now that a childhood was never really an option for me. And I feel like most people that experienced childhood trauma have had that happen to them, to where somebody has been well intentioned, but they have just said something that is so blatantly naïve.Because when you do experience trauma as a child, especially if that's all you know, if that is the world that you grew up in is just trauma, a childhood is not an option for you. It was never an option. It's not a choice that you made. You are growing up too fast because that was the only option that was made available to you. 

So that one always really frustrated me. Thankfully, obviously now that I'm in my 30s, I don't get that anymore, which was part of the reason I always wanted to be like 30 when I was younger. That was my goal age. It was like once you hit 30, people treat you like an adult. And for the most part that is true. While the rest of my peers are moaning about how we're all getting old, to me, I'm like, Nah, nah, this is fine. I am finally an adult. People are finally treating me like an adult. I'm not being treated like a child anymore. This is amazing. 

AUTUMN 

 4:06 

I think the most annoying thing about that is the suggestion that you are the one that's choosing to grow up too fast. Like you're trying to grow up too fast. You're like, Bitch, I'm not trying anything. It wasn't like I just woke up one morning and I was like, Golly gosh, I'd sure love to be 30 with an adult level responsibilities when I'm 12. That'd be nifty. There was no choice, like you said. That's I think what annoys me most when I heard that one was just like, What makes you think I have a choice? Like, where is this? Where is the choice in here? Sit down and talk with me about this because it does not exist. 

 IVY 

 5:00

You know, the other thing that annoyed me about it when people approach it from that angle is on some level, once I was like 15, 16, on some level, yes, I was trying to grow up faster, In part because all I wanted was autonomy. Our childhood was so messed up. And when you were a minor, you have no control over your own destiny until you are a legal adult. So the faster I could get to adulthood at that point, the better as far as I was concerned, because the adults in my life could not be trusted to make good decisions on my behalf. 

So yes, at that point I am trying to grow up faster because faster means freedom and it means autonomy. And even though I am still a child, the sad thing is I am better equipped apparently, to make good decisions for myself than the adults in my life. So yeah, now I am in a position where I am trying to grow up too fast. It wasn't initially a choice I was making, but now it is a choice I'm making because this is like being in prison and purgatory. It is awful. 

 AUTUMN 

 5:46 

 That is very accurate as well. And I think that is something that gets overlooked a lot, is that for a lot of children that are in traumatic homes or traumatic experiences, growing up, hitting 18, being able to, I don't know, run away or have enough adulthood, maturity, resources to actually literally escape the home is sometimes the only way to escape trauma. And yes, I know people can come back at me with like while you can call the police and there's social services and all that, and having worked in mental health and having worked directly with children who had to go through this process, let's just say that doesn't actually work like it's supposed to.  At least the majority of the time that I saw, these kids were still stuck in abusive homes or even worse, moved to new abusive homes. So now you had to learn a whole new set of skills to survive the new trauma with the new family. So, I mean, maybe it works sometimes, but a lot of times it doesn't. It really doesn't. 

All right. So these are just a couple of the things to start out the episode that definitely annoy us. And that's what we're talking about today, is not just things that annoy us, but also things that, to be honest, can be downright damaging or invalidating, or hell retraumatizing to individuals that have gone through trauma. 

And so this list, we're going to be talking about 20 different things today. It comes from personal experience, but it also comes from our experience with other trauma survivors, people that we have worked with or people that we have been in relationships, friendships with, coworkers with, that we hear these things and we talk about them and we're just like, Why would somebody even say this? 

And that's partially what we want to focus on in this episode is shedding a little light on why you shouldn't say this. Because like Ivy said with her fact of the day, you know, the idea that maybe these people are well intentioned. We get that if you've not been through trauma, it can be very difficult experience to understand. And there are a lot of people out there. They just don't know what to do or how to help. And so they are trying. But they're doing it really badly. I'm sorry to say that, but you are you're doing it really badly. And so we do kind of want to shed a little light on why is it not okay to say these things? Why is it so harmful or invalidating? 

And of course, this list is not extensive and it's not in any particular order, but it is things that we encountered a lot in the last couple decades of our lives and that other people we know have encountered as well. 

All right. So with that being said, let's go ahead and jump into number one on our list: Maybe it was your fault. Now, I will say this one is usually not directly said. I mean, there are some people out there that are big enough assholes to suggest that you being beaten, raped, emotionally invalidated, all of these things was somehow your fault, even if you were three years old. But a lot of times this is hinted at, you know, like maybe you shouldn't have worn that outfit or maybe you should have learned how to take self-defense classes. Maybe you should have. It's often presented in that idea. But what comes from it is essentially maybe your trauma was your fault and you should take responsibility for the harm that somebody else chose to do to you. 

 IVY 

 8:57 

This is one of those ones where essentially, if you don't have anything nice to say, just don't say anything at all. I really don't care what your perspective is as far as whether you think that person deserved their trauma or not. That's a whole different thing. But maybe just don't say anything maybe. Maybe that's it. If you can't be validating of that person's experience of trauma, if you can't be compassionate, empathetic, understanding, maybe just zip it. Maybe your opinion is not super important to express. 

 AUTUMN 

 9:30 

 This is one you definitely do hear a lot more with adult trauma, especially the sexual assault and the rape. This is when you do hear a lot more with that than you do with the childhood trauma. And I like some of the - I mean, I hate that they have to be out there, but - these kind of humorous videos and memes and stuff out there about like, oh, well, she was asking for it. I think there's this whole video out there, like what I wear says, I can ask for things and people should just react. And so if I dress in a business suit, then I should just automatically be a CEO and have a six figure job, right? Because I was asking for it. So you should just give that to me, you know, Or the reverse thing of where a girl went home with a guy and while he was sleeping, she decided to steal all of his shit. And then it's like, well, he was asking for it. I mean, he let a complete stranger in his house, so he was asking to be thieved. I mean, when you really look at this logic and you flip it around, there is no she was asking for it or he was asking for it. 

And then I also do hear this, though, I will say, when it comes to children in bullying situations, you know, they were acting like a victim. I've actually heard counselors from schools as well as teachers saying, well, you know, they really ask for it. They ask to be teased. I don't think most people honestly asked to be teased. I think that's an excuse for other children to be able to be cruel and mean. And in that case, you're being defensive because you see your child or a child you like harming someone else and you don't want to acknowledge the fact that that behavior is harmful. 

A lot of times this is just played out within our society as well, because you do get things like transphobia and homophobia - I'm not going to say those words because phobia implies you have a fear, and I don't necessarily think this is a fear. This is just a fallout hatred. So you see people that hate trans kids or hate black kids or hate gay kids or hate neurodivergent kids, because that's what they see in their society. And so they peck on them like chickens until they want to commit suicide or do commit suicide. And again, this person that is different is not asking to be different. That is just what they are. And they're not asking to be ridiculed and pecked to death like a defective chicken because we are human and we have the choice to not be driven by our genetics and to make conscious, positive choices about how we interact with other people. 

And so I feel like really, no matter what situation you see this in, whether it is a rape, whether it is children being bullied or whether it is a child that's gone through this, or hell, even if it's a combat vet who signed up for that tour of duty, maybe it's your fault is never a good response. It's not validating and really, you're just being a fucking asshole if you're saying this to somebody. 

 IVY 

 12:16 

 I want to make one more note on the point of blaming children. Essentially, this also is true for children that have behavioral issues. Because often children that seem like little hellions, they are acting out in response to what they are experiencing. There are a lot of kids who, when they have an abusive or toxic home life. They do rebel, they do act out. They do get into using drugs. They shoplift, they get into fights, they talk back. They just they do all of these things that get really frustrating to the adults around them. 

A lot of times the people on the outside of the situation end up taking out their frustrations on the children and blaming the children for why aren't you behaving? Why aren’t you being obedient? Why are you acting like this? But often that child is having a reaction to what they're experiencing at home or the abuse that they're experiencing. Wherever it's coming from, they're acting out as a way to release that tension, to express their anger or their fear or to cry out for help. 

There can be a million different reasons why a child may act out. And even if a child has a lot of behavioral issues, we need to be looking deeper at that and not just getting pissed off at the kid because that kid is not obeying and not being well behaved and causing issues for us and being inconvenient. They're not doing that, most of the time I would say they're not doing that, because they just want to be little shits. There is a reason that's much deeper for the behaviors that they're having, and we need to be addressing those behaviors at the root and not just blaming the kid for negative things that happen to them, because it's obviously a much deeper issue and a much bigger picture there.

 AUTUMN 

 13:59 

Exactly. Which goes right back into, you know, that whole concept when it does come to children that they have to be taught the skills to communicate. They have to be taught the skills to emotionally regulate. They have to be taught the skills for all of these things. And if they are in an environment that is not teaching the skills, how can you expect them to do that? You know, how can you expect me to speak French or Greek when I have never been exposed to those languages, when I've never been taught how to do that? You wouldn't expect a small child who is only grown up in an English-speaking household to speak French. But yet you expect the small child to just know how to emotionally regulate, to just know how to politely communicate that they're being harmed or that something is going on with them. It's not rational thinking. 

 IVY 

 14:44 

The only other thing that I would add there is that it's also unreasonable to expect those children to just respect your authority or to trust you. Those kids are in environments where all of the adults in their life that are making decisions for them are not worthy of respect and not worthy of their trust. And so they are going to be very slow a lot of times to have respect or trust for any adult because their experiences with the adults around them have let them down and have not been good.

 AUTUMN 

 15:10 

I will say amen to that because as a 41 year old woman, I still do not trust authority figures to this day. The message that authority figures will hurt you and cannot be trusted to make any control decisions over your life was hammered deep, deep within my brain. I don't think that's ever going to change for me in this lifetime. 

All right. So I do want to go ahead and go on to number two on the list: Why do you keep going back? Wwhen two people are in this toxic relationship or one person's in this relationship and you want to say, oh, it's your fault, why don't you just leave? Or why do you keep going back to the situation? And sometimes it is both. People are being, you know, trauma inducing to one another. But more often than not, it's when one person is being abused. A lot of times they even know that this person is bad for them. They understand that, but they keep going back. And so the person from the outside usually in almost an accusatory way.

Bbecause this one often has a lot of sub context with it. It's not just a curious inquiry of I don't understand, can you please help me understand why you continue to be in this relationship? Because that's a whole different sort of thing. This one comes with that loaded baggage of hinting maybe you want to be abused. And it also insinuates again that they have the choice to just leave that situation. 

IVY 

 17:17 

Yeah, this is one that we all should be very, very careful with because again, like you don't know what goes on behind closed doors. Even if you have an inkling, even if you think, you know, you don't know all of the subtleties, you don't know every little thing that's happening behind closed doors because you can't. We're not we're not there. We're not part of the intricacies of their relationship. 

And there can be so many dangers in trying to leave, even if, you know, you need to, even if you desperately want to, even if you are fearful of what would happen to you if you stay in that relationship, there can be a lot of things that can keep a person trapped. Issues around child custody or custody of pets. There can be financial issues. There can be concerns around being stalked. Because I'm sorry, when I worked at the jail, I can't tell you how many people I booked in day in, day out for violating protective orders or violating restraining orders. If I remember correctly, the research actually indicates that in some ways it's more dangerous for somebody in a domestic abuse situation to leave, because then you have to deal with the ramifications of that abuser losing their control over that person. And that is not something they are willing to do. And they will do anything they can to get it back, even if that means killing you. There's a lot of reasons why somebody may end up stuck in a situation and not really have an option to leave, even if it seems like they should have an option to leave. 

Oh, well, you have a support system. You have people that would take you in. But this person is intimately aware of how abusive their partner or this other person can be, and they also don't want to drag other people into that. They don't want to risk that their loved ones might be hurt by their abuser because their abuser is so desperate to regain control over them. There are so many reasons why people may not actually have a choice, and they keep going back because they legitimately feel as though it is the only option they have. It is very difficult to leave an abuser.

 AUTUMN 

 18:40 

And that is exactly why we have things like battered women's shelters, because when these people are actually finally able to leave these horribly abusive situations, they are literally fleeing for their lives and they have nothing, oftentimes just the clothes on their back. And hopefully they were able to get out with their kid or their dog and they have to start over from nothing. And depending on the situation, they may have never been allowed to have a work history or been able to earn their own money or have their own checking account or possibly even a driver's license. 

And I know some people will come back and say, but not every situation is so extreme. Not every situation is life or death. And sometimes it's not that the person is being beaten or that they're even being extremely abused or isolated, it's just that their partner is toxic or they're just not really good enough for them and they could do so much better. And they're putting themselves in this traumatic situation again and again when by all accounts, they could easily choose to leave. They have their own money, their own checking account, their own power. But why do they keep going back? 

Often we don't get to choose who we love, and so we do feel attracted to and in love with people that can hurt us depending on the stories that got wired into our brain growing up as well. As a whole slew of other mental health issues that may be going on, such as not feeling good enough, feeling as though you deserve to be put down, feeling as though it is your responsibility to save this person. There are so many other mental health issues and neurological wiring sort of things that go into relationships that we don't understand as outsiders. And more often than not, a lot of people in these relationships don't yet understand these things either because it takes a lot of awareness and a lot of work, often years of awareness and work to be able to reveal these sorts of things and to work through them and to get to a point where you can hopefully have a healthy relationship. 

 IVY 

 20:40 

 One other thing to keep in mind as well is that many abusers don't start out being abusers. Many abusers do start out with things like love bombing or they seem great on the surface and they're hiding those true colors. And then over time, it starts in little ways, little, you know, forms of jealousy that seem kind of cute at first, and then they become really possessive, and then they start isolating the person from all of their friends and family. This is a progression. 

People often don't go into a relationship with somebody who is abusive right off the bat of something that reveals itself over time. And because of that progression, because of the way it plays out, we also have to keep in mind that a person may be staying in that relationship, even though it looks like they could easily leave, they may be staying in that relationship because that abuser has slowly broken them down over time and mentally now they are trapped and they may not even realize that they are trapped because they have been in this abusive situation for so long and it has progressed so slowly that they may not have really noticed it until it was too late or they may still not notice it because it's happened for them so slowly. 

AUTUMN 

 21:04? 

And this goes back to what I was saying when we first brought this one up on the list, and that is the idea that if you are honestly concerned about this person and you really want to understand them and are curious about their behavior, then yes, I mean, this can be a valid question to ask. But you have to make it very clear because unfortunately, with so much of our society, all communication comes with meta communication. It comes with subcontext. And so when you ask why do you stay, why do you keep going back? It sounds accusatory. 

But if you are honestly curious and you really do want to help this person see that the relationship is abusive or that they may have some issues that are keeping them from leaving an unhealthy situation, you have to think about how to word this and how to explain this. So you may not just want to say, why do you stay? Why do you keep going back to him? You may want to say, I'm really concerned about X, Y, Z and how this is affecting you, but I see that it's very important to you to stay in this relationship. Can you help me understand the reasons? Can you help me understand what's going on here? Because I love you. And so coming at it with that message, that idea of I want to understand is perfectly okay and probably good for the person that you're a friend and you're concerned and that you want to understand. But coming at it with an accusatory note of, well, obviously you want to be abused, why do you keep saying otherwise? That's where this particular sentence goes awry. 

All right. So let's go ahead and go on to number three on the list: They didn't mean to hurt you. This one often comes up as a way to excuse the abusers behavior or in some cases to completely invalidate the person's experience of trauma. And in this case, I would honestly say you need to educate yourself about what trauma is and how it's experienced and just the nature of trauma in general, because the reality is this: trauma is different for everyone. 

And so you may have a kid going through an experience that everybody goes through, but it's traumatic for them. There's tons of kids who have gone through divorces and it was never traumatic for them. Right? Well, everybody's different. And so while the parents getting divorced may have actually been a healthy decision and neither of them meant for that child to be hurt, that does not mean the child was not hurt. And so in this case, saying they didn't mean to hurt you feels very invalidating because it's like saying then you shouldn't be hurt. Their intention wasn't to hurt you, so you should not feel hurt. So you're literally completely directly invalidating the fact that they are in pain. . You don't necessarily have to say that the person was a monster and they were trying to attack them, but there is a big difference between that and acknowledging that this person is in pain and that this person is struggling with something that has been done to them or that has happened in their life.

IVY

 24:52? 

This is one of those ones, for the most part, I think people should just steer away from, to be perfectly honest. Because one, you don't actually know that person's intentions. You don't. You can guess at their intentions, but you don't know for a fact that that person unintentionally caused harm. 

And I look at our parents, for example. Our mom caused a lot of damage to us a lot. And obviously, like there were years that I was really angry at her for that. But I got to a space of forgiveness with my mom because my mom actually did try to make amends and she did feel genuine remorse. And it was very obvious to me as time went on that, yeah, my mom didn't do those things from a space of malevolence or trying to control or trying to manipulate to do harm. She wasn't intentionally trying to hurt me. 

My father, on the other hand, I look at his behavior both when we were children and his behavior since and how he's responded when I have asked him about situations or I have called him out and he gets very defensive and he gets very angry and he starts blaming other people. And I can look back on some of his behaviors and some of the choices that he made. And it's very, very obvious that he made those choices intentionally. And it was very, very obvious that there were situations in which he really was intentionally trying to damage and cause harm. 

So you as an outside observer, you have no idea whether somebody was intentionally trying to cause harm or not. So again, maybe just don't say anything. Because maybe you really do just see the best in all people and it's unfathomable to you that somebody would intentionally cause harm to another person. But there are people that do and you don't actually know what their intentions are. 

And the other thing that I would say here, too, is it's like to a certain degree, it doesn't matter because the damage is done. Like, I did forgive my mom. I love my mom. There are so many things that I find to be wonderful about her and am thankful to emulate now. But I cannot deny that intentional or not, the damage is done and now the damage has to be dealt with. And I have spent years trying to heal that. Somebody telling me that she didn't mean to hurt me. Okay. Yeah, I get that. I agree with you. My mom didn't mean to hurt me. But the fact of the matter was, she still did a lot of damage and that damage can't be undone. I can only work on healing from it now, and it's not helpful to me at this point for you to tell me that my mom didn't mean to cause me harm. Because even if that's true, and I do believe that it's true on some level, it doesn't really fucking matter because I still have to deal with the fallout of the damage that was done. 

 AUTUMN 

 27:37 

 So I think with this one, like I said, it's sort of beside the point. You know, if I turn around suddenly and I accidentally hit somebody in the face, which I've done because I'm not graceful, it's not enough to say, Oh, I didn't mean to hit you. I didn't mean to accidentally break your nose. I didn't mean to accidentally throw an ice encrusted rubber piggy right into your eye and give you a black eye, because I've done that before. But it's not enough to say I didn't mean to because I still did it. There was still actions that caused harm to other people. And so at that point, it's kind of beside the point what my intentions were. The reality is, is there is now harm in the world. So how do we move forward in dealing with it? 

All right. So number four on our list, you have to forgive them or give them another chance. Okay, so I feel like this one is spoken well intentionedly, possibly by a lot of people that grew up and lived with very healthy environments and experiences. And so they are operating within a sane world and a sane environment and sane parameters. But when it comes to trauma, a lot of us, we did not exist in that world. Okay? 

So the things that happened in the traumatic environment are often something that people that grow up in healthy arenas cannot even fathom having happened or experiences they can't even imagine existing in our world. So saying like, you have to forgive them or give them another chance, you're really telling somebody to operate towards potentially a very harmful, abusive person, treating them as though that person actually loves them or has their best interests in heart, or all of these other things that may not be true. And so this one like telling somebody they have to forgive them or they have to give them another chance. You do not typically have enough information to ever issue that sort of directive. 

 IVY 

 29:45 

 There is one other subset of people that I have really seen used that concept of like, you have to forgive, you have to forgive, and it's religious people. Most of the you have to forgive talk that I got when I was younger came from well-intentioned but religious people who and some of them did have their own experience of trauma. And for them that worked, like for them being able to forgive was part of their healing process. And it was great for them and that's what they needed to do. Which if that is true for you, all, the more power to you. 

But that never sat well with me. This idea that, well, you don't get to judge because that's God's place to judge. You have to forgive. You have no other choice but to forgive. Otherwise you are sinning too. And honestly, that's something that still angers me, not just in in the sense of how it impacted me, but how I see it impact other people who have gone through trauma. 

Because now not only are you saying essentially you just have to turn your other cheek and accept the fact that your abuser harmed you and they did this damage to you, you have to forgive them anyway. You are now adding the additional guilt of if you don't, you are sinning under God now. God doesn't want you either. And that is incredibly invalidating and it is retraumatizing. And I have seen how deeply that can hurt and impact people who are trying to recover from trauma. 

It was not something that I, I personally ever really, I guess, absorbed. I didn't take on that guilt that came with that. But I did get a lot of that messaging because I was very angry at both of my parents. And a lot of the messaging coming at me from my religious community was, you have to forgive them. God says so. If you don't forgive, then not only are you damaging, then you're also damaging the entirety of your family because you're supposed to be this family unit and you're also making God upset. 

And to me, just in my head, I was like, that's bullshit. Any God that requires me to just forgive my abusers and pretend like this never happened is not a God worth worshipping. That was how I always viewed it. But I've seen so many people who get trapped in this idea that like, Oh my God, the fact that I can't forgive, like not only is this damaging to my, you know, to this person who deserves forgiveness, we all deserve forgiveness. But now God is judging me and God doesn't want me anymore. And I am no longer deserving of God's love and no longer worthy of God's love because I'm having such a hard time forgiving and having such a hard time letting go of this. 

You will forgive if and when you want to. And if you don't ever forgive, let me be the voice advocating for you, saying you don't have to. To me, I feel like forgiveness is a very personal choice. Some people feel like forgiveness helps heal them. That has not been my experience in every case. It was in my relationship with my mom. I'm glad I forgave my mom before she passed. I'm glad we were able to work on our relationship. I tried to forgive my father and every time I tried to forgive him it made me vulnerable to his manipulations all over again. 

And for me, at least, until he has passed on, and there is no risk that I will ever be pulled back into that cycle with him - Because when I was very young, I was daddy's little girl. He was my entire world. It was a very unhealthy enmeshed. Just am not going to go into a whole lot of detail because it's still painful for me and it's still something that I'm trying to heal and process from. - But being in contact with him again as an adult a couple of times that I tried to be and trying to work on that relationship and trying to forgive him, all it did was make me more susceptible to falling for the same tricks and falling back into the same patterns with him. And that does not serve me. 

And that may be the case for you, too. Maybe forgiveness is a step towards you falling back into the same patterns with your abuser all over again. Because along with that idea of forgiveness often comes the idea of second chances. Everybody deserves a second chance. No, some people don't. Some people if given a second chance will just hurt you again. And maybe that sounds paranoid to some people, but if you are somebody who has gone through the same pattern with your abuser again and again and again, you know that that's a reality that some people legitimately do not change. And sometimes forgiving them puts you in a space where you are more vulnerable to being sucked into that unhealthy dynamic with them again. 

So do not let anybody guilt you into forgiving until you're ready. And if you're never ready, then you're never ready. And that's fine, too. As far as I'm concerned, I'm sorry, I don't think that God is going to strike you down or cast you out or disown you because the pain you experienced was so deep and forgiveness feels so unsafe. I don't think God would be that cruel. I honestly don't. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but if I am to me, not a God worth worshipping. That's my personal take on it.

 AUTUMN 

 35:05 

You are right. There are definitely a subset, especially of trauma survivors, and some of them are even religious. They do say that you have to forgive. And I've actually been seeing this with some therapists. I don't know if that's some therapy out there that's recommended or not, but I have seen some therapists or counselors that say, well, you have to forgive as part of your healing journey. And I do agree with Ivy on this that forgiveness is a personal choice. 

And I think this idea of forgiveness specifically stems from two main things. One, the relational focus that so many people have, like the relationships are so much more important than anything else. And I get that humans are relational creatures and were designed like that. But not every relationship is of vital importance. And so to say, you know what, I'm not going to forgive that person, I'm not going to repair the relationship and that relationship is just going to be shitty and jagged and broken for the rest of the eternity. That's okay. If staying away from that relationship and staying angry helps keep you safe and helps keep you healing and helps keep you moving forward and growing, then maybe that anger serves a valid purpose. 

And I think that's the second piece to where this idea of forgiveness really comes from is our uncomfortableness with the idea of anger. Because often when this comes up is when you are angry at people that have abused you. And most people are very uncomfortable with anger and it's something we need to fix and it's something we need to make go away, as are almost all emotions in our culture. You know, if you're sad, we need to fix that. If you're angry, we need to fix that. Hell, if you're too happy, we need to fix that. We need you to normalize. And the way to normalize this anger is to make you forgive the person so the anger can go away, because we're not comfortable with that. 

And can anger get unhealthy? Yes, it can consume you. It can lead you to violent behaviors toward yourself or towards others. It can cause all sorts of issues. But anger can also be a valid response. And it's also okay to hang on to that anger, to validate your experiences, to say I was hurt. It's okay for me to be angry and it's okay for you to continue to be angry for a very long time. 

And if you're one of those people that just well, I don't want them to hurt themselves with anger and to be consumed by this. I get that. But maybe we talk about how to handle and process and be angry in a healthy manner as opposed to encouraging people to just stop being angry. 

 IVY 

 37:30 

I would also note here that just because somebody is choosing not to forgive does not always mean that they are angry. I spent a lot of years being angry at my father and for the most part, over the last, I don't know, six months to a year, I feel like for the first time I am not really angry at him anymore. I feel like I have processed at least the bulk of that anger. Maybe it will rear back up again at some point in the future. But for years I was so angry and enraged at him all the time because I was processing that. I was trying to work through that part of my healing. And I feel like I have gotten to a space where I am no longer angry and enraged at him.  But I also still don't forgive him. 

And so just because somebody is choosing not to forgive does not necessarily mean that they are angry or that they're still angry. It is possible to get to a space where you have at least largely processed your anger, and that's not the driving force behind the lack of forgiveness anymore at this point. 

Me not forgiving him has less to do with anger and again, more with keeping me safe, because I don't entirely trust that I am no longer susceptible to his manipulations, because that bond that I had with him, unhealthy as it was, was still very real to me. And it was the first real meaningful relationship that I had. And there is still a part of me that desperately wants to love my father in spite of the monster that I see him as now. It is not safe for me to forgive him, even though most of that anger, if not all of that anger, has largely passed. It is still not safe in my mind for me to forgive him, because as soon as I forgive him, I am too tempted to let him back in. 

So if you are worried about somebody not forgiving because you don't want them to be consumed by anger and rage in some situations, then they may be consumed by anger and rage and understand your concern. But in some situations that's not the driving force behind their choice not to forgive. So I would not jump to conclusions. I would ask more questions. I would not just automatically assume they are an angry, wrathful person because that's not always what's going on.

 AUTUMN 

 39:56 

And I feel like that takes us right into number five on the list: You should try X, Y, or Z. This is often where somebody understands that you've gone through trauma and maybe they've even gone through trauma themselves and so they tell you what you should do to heal. And I say what Ivy was saying directly links into this because everybody's healing journey is different. You know, I talked earlier about how everybody's experience is different. So what one person may experience as a trauma isn't even a trauma to another person. And it's the same way with healing. What may have really turned the path and opened up a whole new life for one person may be actively damaging to another person. And so this concept of coming in and saying, well, you should. That one can get very, very sketchy because what worked for you or what worked for somebody else may not be appropriate or healthy for another person's journey. 

 IVY 

 40:56 

 I am embarrassed to admit that this is one that I have been guilty of. I feel worked very hard and I'm still working on it, to not do this. Because I think for a lot of people it is well intentioned. And if you've been on your own healing journey for a while, you've probably tried a wide variety of things. And so the things that you find that work for you are very exciting and you want to share them with the whole world because this works so well for me. And I just want to share this amazing thing with other people because I think it could heal them too, and it can help them too. And you get so enthusiastic and excited about it and you just want to share it with everybody. But like Autumn said it's not always going to fit with everybody. 

Different people heal in different ways, and even if that particular thing might help that person, they may not be ready to utilize that yet either. And maybe they don't want to hear outside suggestions for how they should be healing because they just want to deal with it in their own way and in their own time. And they just want to work with their therapist or internally process it without having a lot of external input. 

And so this is one that I do think is really important to rein it in, even if you are very well intentioned, even if you're very excited because you found something that works really well for you, it is hard to keep it in. I am guilty of this one. I did this a whole lot when I was younger. I still catch myself doing it sometimes and I have to pull it in and remind myself that just because something works for me doesn't mean it's going to work for everybody. And even if this might work for them, they may not be in a space where this is useful to them right now. And I just need to be supportive of that person, whatever their journey is. 

And sometimes people will ask you for advice. They will ask you what you've done. By all means in those situations, share that with them. But unless that person is actively seeking something from you, just be very, very cautious. 

 AUTUMN 

 42:47 

 I am one of those people that have a lot of bursty bits, and one of my bursty bits is when I have information, I feel compelled to share it. And so there are a lot of times when people don't ask me for information, but I still have to share it. And like I said, I do get excited about things that help. And so one of the ways I've learned to rephrase this in a way is this is what I've done. 

And so a great example, a lot more simple than dealing with trauma is headaches. So one of the things that really was a game changer for me with headaches is giving up sugar. And initially I did exactly what I said was like, Oh my God, this is so exciting. Everybody needs to give up sugar. If you have headaches, obviously because of sugar and you need to stop the sugar. And that's just not the reality of it. That's not the same reason that everybody has headaches, just like everybody's body is different. Everybody's trauma is different, everybody's journey is different. 

And so what I now do when somebody is like, oh, you know, I'm always going through these headaches. I'm just at my wit's end. I don't even know what to do anymore. I will chime in. They may not be asking me specifically, but I will chime in and say, you know, I, I used to have a ton of headaches like almost every single day. And one of the things I did was I gave up sugar and I actually kind of went on a whole diet deep dive and realized that I had a lot of triggers. And so with that, I'm not telling that person they need to or they should do anything, but I am still providing them with information that may be helpful further down the journey. 

So maybe right now they don't care about diet and they're looking at something else, but maybe in a couple of months they'll go, You know what, that weird, crazy woman at work that's always forcing information on me said something about sugar. Fuck it. Maybe I'll try it. Maybe it does nothing for them, but maybe it does. But either way, I did provide the information without forcing it down their throat or trying to direct their behavior. 

IVY 

 44:17 

I find it amusing and somewhat ironic here that Autumn used that example because I actually gave up sugar before Autumn to help with my bipolar. And I remember having a conversation, at least one conversation, possibly more with Autumn about giving up sugar and how much it helped me. And I wasn't thinking about it for her headaches. It never occurred to me that getting rid of sugar would help with headaches, I don't think. But I had talked about like how much it was benefiting me to get rid of sugar, how it helped decrease my anxiety and all these things. And I was very excited about it. And I was just gung-ho about like everybody should cut back on the amount of sugar that they take in because it's like a drug. It's like worse than  cocaine, like has so many negative side effects. Everybody should give up sugar. I was so excited because it helped me so much. 

And Autumn was extremely resistant to the idea of giving up sugar. And she stayed that way for like a while. And so I find it funny and somewhat ironic that was the example she used. Yeah, that played out more in more ways than one as an example for this particular point. 

 AUTUMN 

 45:23 

And I will openly admit part of the reason I was so resistant for so long was because you told me I should. And I think there's so many of us out there, no matter where you're at on the neurodivergent neurotypical spectrum or the mental health spectrum, that will get along with people just fine until they tell us what to do. And then we're like, Fuck you, I do what I want. And so when you told me I should give up sugar, I was automatically reluctant to do it. But when you did start changing your talk because we had multiple conversations about this and you just started sharing like when I gave up sugar and you were no longer trying to convert me to the process,  that's when I was more receptive to the information and that's when I was more willing to try them. 

IVY 

 45:51 

Right there you get to see my learning curve. Now, if only I could just learn that lesson one time and just have that guiding me in my decision is moving forward. That would be great, but I still have those moments where I get super excited about this thing that helped me so much and under certain it's going to help everybody else. And I do phrase it as you should and just inundate them with all this information about why it's so important to do this thing. I don't do it as much as I used to. I am going to better at it. But I still do have my moments where I am a dick about this without needing to be.

It is well intentioned, but as I mentioned earlier in our list, intentions don't necessarily matter. Sometimes you do  damage without meaning too. So just. Just remember that. Don't be like me. That's what I'm saying. Don't be like me. 

 AUTUMN 

 47:00 

 So this actually reminds me of a quote. It's actually about religion, but I feel like this applies to many things, you know, like advice as well or things we have done. But the quote is that religion is like a dick. It's okay to have religion. It's okay to be proud of religion, but it's not okay to force it down somebodys throat. And I feel like our advice is the same way. 

And just like we were talking about everybody's healing journey is different because everybody is different leads us right into the idea of number six on our list, which you've already peripherally talked about, which is everybody goes through that. So it shouldn’t be a trauma for you essentially.

You say, well, my parents got divorced. Well, everybody has parents that get divorced. Or I was left at home alone all the time as a kid. I was a latchkey kid. Well, everybody goes through that. Like we've said, I think a thousand times already in just in this episode, everybody is different. You may have experienced that exact same thing that the person did. A thousand other people may have experienced the exact same thing that that person did. And it was not traumatic for all of these other people. That has no reflection on whether or not it was traumatic for that individual. 

We are all wired completely differently. You know, we all have different genetics. We all have different generational burdens that we're sharing. We all have different environments. Sometimes even when we grow up in the same household, we still have very, very different experiences that are siblings. Even though we share the same environment, we share the same parents, we share the same school, we share the same genetics. We can still be vastly different people. And because of that, what is traumatic for one person may not be traumatic for another and vice versa. At its core, trauma really is a reactionary response that we don't have a lot of control over. It's not like we chose to wire our amygdala in such a way that we were prone to be overly sensitive to this specific factor in our environment and were traumatized by it. We did not get to choose to do that to our brain, to set up our genetics in that way. 

 IVY 

 49:04 

 Yeah. The other thing that I would note on here is that just because everybody goes through something does not mean that that thing was not traumatic, does not mean that that thing was right or okay. Most people, I think, get bullied at some point in their lives. On some level, they get bullied. But that doesn’t make that okey. That's one of the things that's always frustrating me about it, too. 

Or it's like our grandma's generation, they all went through the Depression. They all lived through World War II. Yeah and that shit was traumatic for an entire generation of people. Using the idea that everybody experienced this thing means you don't get to feel traumatized by it that seems so, for lack of a better word, just stupid. Sometimes the fact that everybody experiences something should be leading us to look at that thing and say, Wow, this is actually really damaging to a lot of people. This is really not okay that so many people experience this. 

There is high number of people who experienced sexual abuse and sexual assault. It doesn't mean that that is fine. It doesn't mean that that is acceptable and it doesn't mean that any survivor of sexual abuse or sexual trauma should just be fine with it simply because what tons of other people experienced it. You just have to deal with it. That's just the way that life is. You don't get to be traumatized by it because it's normal. 

Normal doesn't mean okay. Normal does not equate to healthy. That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how many people something happened to. That doesn't invalidate the experience of trauma for the person who experienced it. 

AUTUMN 

 50:40 

That is one of the reasons right there that I love the gentle parenting movement that I'm seeing out there. Because there were a lot of parental techniques from my parents’ generation and my grandparents’ generation and my great grandparents’ generation that were traumatic. But they were readily accepted and everybody went through that. Everybody had to go get a switch from the backyard to get their ass whipped. All these sorts of things happen to all these people. You know, all of us were latchkey kids that had no parents and were just neglected. Well, we've got a whole a whole generation now, or at least a lot of people in that generation that are realizing, yeah, that may have been normal doesn't mean it's okay. And so I love that we're starting to discover that as a culture that normality does not equal healthy. Because when we think that normality equals healthy, we think that it's okay to continue to perpetuate normality. But if that normality is in fact traumatic, we are choosing to perpetuate trauma. 

And so it's always good to look, like I've said at those experiences and say, okay, is this really healthy? Is this really okay or not? And again, even if it turns out it is really healthy, doesn't mean it didn't traumatize that person because who knows what their genes, environment and everything else made them sensitive to. 

And I think this one also on our list ties right in with number seven: I know somebody who went through something similar and he got over it. Why can't you? This one! I almost chose this one as my fact of the day, like the one that annoys me the most. Because this one really, really, really annoys the shit out of me. One of the books I get quoted [to me] the most is A Child Called It. And they're like, Oh, but he went through so many worse things and look what he did with his life and he's fine. So why can't everybody just be okay? You know, even if your parent beats you and stabs you and shove shit in your face and tries to kill you with ammonia-Clorox mix, it's okay. You can just grow up to be successful like this guy. 

There's like so many things I want to say, and I'm really trying hard to control myself here because this just is so anger inducing for me and it makes me want to rant so much because again, it goes back to one, everybody is different. And also, two, they're outliers everywhere. 

You know what, Hugh Jackman, he's really famous. He's made millions of dollars being in a movie. Why can't you? This famous football player, look at him. He's out there being successful. He owns mansion. He's got a private jet. Why can't you own a private jet? I mean, he went through the same experience as you did. He was in public school. He went to college. Why don't you own a private jet? You know, in my mind, that's what it's like. \

It's like you're looking at these outliers, these extreme cases of people that were exceptionally resilient or had very specific environments that  allowed them to then heal from that trauma or resources that allowed them to heal in such a manner and expecting everybody to be able to do the same thing. And that, again, it angers me so much because it makes the rest of us feel like we're failing. 

And many of us who went through that trauma already feel like failures because we're so far behind in life. When everybody's got to start climbing that mountain to reach towards success, we still had to climb out of the pit. And so why so many people with healthy environments are halfway up that mountain, we're still at the bottom feeling like failures because we've barely taken a step up because of what we've had to get through. And then it's just getting rubbed on our face further that, yeah, you are a failure. Look at this guy. He was able to do that. 

IVY 

54:06

Yeah. And you know, I think the other thing to remember here as well is that as a society, we base success on things like money or fame or being high on the corporate ladder. Those things do not necessarily mean that someone is okay. There have been tons of people throughout time that were successful by society standards. They had lots of money, they had fame, they had admirers. Everybody loved them. They seemed really happy. They seemed really outgoing. It seemed like they were on top of the world and then they commit suicide and no one saw it coming. You have no idea if people are actually okay or not. Sometimes even the people who are closest have no idea if somebody is okay.

Because one of the things that trauma survivors also get very good at, just like Neurodivergent people, is masking. And a lot of times it's because we had no other choice. We had to pretend like we were okay. We had to be strong. We had to be resilient. We had to be people pleasers. We had to make sure everybody else was okay. We had to put on this persona. And so we seem okay. 

And I'm not somebody who even sees myself as being particularly good at masking when I'm having a hard time. And yet even then, there are so many people in my life that don't notice when I'm struggling or when I’m having a hard time. Because even though I feel like I'm floundering on the inside, I don't look like it to other people on the outside. And I always think that I'm somebody who looks like I wear my heart on my sleeve. I feel like I suck at masking. And yet there's tons of people that never notice when I'm when I'm struggling at all. 

And that is even more true I think of people who are masters in masking, who are very successful, who always seem to be happy and having a good time, and they're smiling and making everybody else laugh again. You have no idea whether or not somebody is actually okay. You had no idea whether somebody actually gotten over or healed from their trauma. 

So not only is it completely irrelevant to compare one person's trauma to another or one person's trauma response to another, not only is that completely irrelevant, but when you are looking at these outliers who seem like they have overcome and they've conquered and they're on top of the world and they're so happy and everything is going great for them.  I'm sorry, that doesn't mean fuck all anything. You don't know what's going on inside their heads. You don't know what's going on behind closed doors. So making the assumption that somebody is okay, that they are fine, that they got over it is incredibly foolhardy because you have no real way of knowing. 

 AUTUMN 

 56:47 

 And so while we're on the topic of the idea of defining what trauma is and defining whether or not it's okay to perceive it as trauma and how we should react to it, let's go ahead and go on to number eight, which is the idea that other people had it worse than you. But you didn't go to war, you didn't live in a war zone, you didn't actually get hit as a kid, you don't live in a third world country. I hear this phrase especially brought up in context of comparing childhood trauma to war veteran trauma, which I'm not sure why we're trying to compete or they're trying to make us compete against one another. But the idea that, you know, you couldn't have really experience that much of an issue as a child because I was actually in war or this person was actually in war. So they deserve to have PTSD somehow. I'm not sure what that's about. 

You know, in my childhood, I didn't get hit. I was not sexually assaulted, at least to my awareness. I honestly don't remember a good portion of my childhood. So who the hell knows? But one of the things that did happen for me, I would say about the ages, about 12 until 18 for sure. I would say my adrenal system was overactive for that entire time. So my entire adolescence, my adrenal system was flooding my system for a decade. Can you kind of consider what that might do to somebody's development, to somebody's brain? Hell, just to my adrenal system at all. 

And then when I get out of that trauma, when I escape that situation, it doesn't magically all get better. I still now have to deprogram everything I learned. I still now have to work actively to convince my brain that it's safe enough to turn my adrenal system down. And now, even at 40, that's part of why I struggle with anxiety still is because my adrenal system is fucked up. And that's partially because during my developmental years it was turned on past max for a decade. As I was constantly attuned to every person in the household and taking care of their needs and worried about base survival of myself and my sister and all of the animals I was placed in charge with, as well as my mother, who I was taking care of. 

And so that's just one component of trauma to consider is that idea of your adrenal system being on. So yeah, I didn't go to war, I wasn't hit, I was probably never raped, but that doesn't mean that I was not fucked up by the circumstances. It doesn't mean that I did not have recordable physiological and biological changes that happened to me. 

And that's the same way with other children that have experienced trauma as well. When you look at their brain scans, there are physiological differences in their brains. That means their brains formed and grew differently because of the experiences they went through. That is what trauma did to them: it changed the way their brain is physically shaped, for Pete's sake. And that's not something you get to change as an adult. I don't just get to go in there, open my skull and squish things back so I can now have a neurotypical brain.

IVY 

 59:58 

It actually in some ways points to a couple of the things that we've already talked about on this list, and one of them being that idea that just because everybody goes through it means it's fine and it's normal, it's okay. It can't possibly have hurt you. And the other one being not dealing with your trauma. Because I see this as being somewhat of a generational thing. 

You had generations that dealt with very significant wars where people were on the front lines and they experienced some horrible things. You had World War I, World War II, the Korean War, Vietnam. And I feel like a lot of those people came back and did not have the resources available. And there wasn't even really the knowledge yet available to help them deal with and process what they had gone through. And so you have these people coming back from combat and they are forever scarred, they are forever changed, and yet they have to come back and live life as though the war they went to never happened back then. And these previous generations, not only did they not have mental health resources available to them, nobody fucking knew what was going on there. Like psychology was still relatively new. There were just no answers. Nobody knew how much it was going to affect them. 

So you have an entire generation of people who are being significantly impacted by the war times that they lived in, whether they were in combat or whether they were civilians that had to deal with the fallout that was associated with those wars. And because there were no resources, because there was no real knowledge or education to help any of those people there trying to deal with all this stuff internally, they're completely ill equipped to do it. And they've been through some really horrific things. And so they since they're not dealing with their trauma like we talked about earlier in the episode, it bleeds out onto everybody around you. Trauma doesn't go away just because you ignore it, just because you try to go on like life as normal trauma will come out somehow. And a lot of times the impact is collateral damage. 

And so I think that mentality comes from these generations of people who did go to war or who experienced these war times and that very specific type of trauma. And so when they're raising their children, their attitude is you don't get to be upset about this. It doesn't matter if I gave you a whoopin’ and me yelling at you, that's not trauma. I'll tell you what trauma is. What I went through is trauma. And so I think that mentality comes very much from that. 

And it's it's very sad because it's a generational thing. It's a cultural thing. It's this really big picture of you have a ton of people who for generations had no real resources or knowledge or education to help them deal with and process the trauma that they went through. And so they then perpetuate that trauma onto the next generation and the next generation. And so I think that's where a lot of that mentality actually does come from. 

But again, one person's experience of trauma is irrelevant to another person's experience of trauma. There are so many different forms of trauma, but trauma, as Autumn was explaining, has real physiological impacts. It forever changes you, and it doesn't matter what kind of trauma it is. 

And yes, those of us have who have gone through trauma, we are aware that there are other people in the world who have gone through things that are even more horrific than what we've been through. Chances are, if you've been through trauma, you have met at least one person before whose experiences you can look at and you think how they really went through something horrific like mine was not that big compared to that person. And like, that is part of the experience of having trauma, too, is like trying to gain perspective on what you've been through, trying to gain perspective on what trauma survivors in general go through. 

And we don't need to be reminded all the time that other people have been through things worse than us. We fucking know. In some ways, that's what makes it even worse. When you are a trauma survivor and you've gone through these things and you know how painful it is, you know the long-term impacts of it, you know how it forever changes you and your ability to relate to other people and your ability to just exist in this world and to know that there are so many other people out in the world who  have been through trauma, too, and they have been through things that you can look at and say, yeah, that person, what they went through is even worse than what I went through. That makes you feel worse to know that the world can be so full of pain. 

So you telling a trauma survivor other people had it worse than you. Not only is that irrelevant, it's not telling them anything they don't already know. Trust me, we fucking know. We know how much pain and suffering there is in the world. And we live with that every day. And it's not just our trauma, because every trauma survivor that is aware of their trauma is trying to process it, to heal it because of the experiences that we've had, what we live with every day. We feel deeply for every other person who has been through anything else like that, because we know how much it changes your life in every relationship that you have. So you don't need to tell trauma survivors that other people have had it worse than them, because trust me, we fucking know better than you do

 AUTUMN 

 65:18 

That is very accurate. And I would say one of the pieces of meta-communication that goes with this is also that invalidation. Like so therefore you shouldn't be traumatized. Therefore you should be okay. And I think one of the more harmful pieces of this is that it does leave a lot of trauma survivors feeling like maybe they're wrong, maybe they're insane.

And oftentimes, especially with childhood trauma, one of the things that happens is you spend your entire childhood being invalidated, being gaslit, being made to believe that your reactions and feelings and thoughts and perceptions and beliefs are actually wrong, and that your perception of reality is wrong. And when you tell people, like other people have it worse than you, you weren't actually hit, you didn't go to war. It makes them question whether or not what they experienced even was trauma, which then just messes up their healing journey. It makes it that much harder for them to reach out for help, to acknowledge the damage that was done with them so that they can begin healing it and begin taking control and responsibility for their own behavior. 

And one of the things I feel that is also tied into this overall, you know, cultural idea that I was talking about that comes with that is: Well just get over it. It's in the past, move on. And I love it sarcastically speaking here, I love it when people tell me it's in the past. And I'm like, No, no, it's not. It's in my brain, it's in my adrenal system, it's in my nervous system, it's in my body. This isn't in the past. It's part of me. 

It's no more than your big toe is in the past. Well, you grew that in the womb. You shouldn't have that anymore. That's in the past. Get over the fact that you have a big toe. Just start losing balance and falling over because that was like, what in the womb? You weren't even born yet. Get over it, man. You shouldn't have that anymore. 

Like I just said, trauma lives in your body. It is a body, physiological, physical thing. And so, no, my trauma and other people's trauma is not in the past. It is quite real. It is quite real inside my body. It is not just some distant echo of a memory. It is a wired synapsis. It is a changed brain. It is a nervous system that cannot regulate because it was never taught how and never given the option. And now that I am an adult, it may never learn to regulate because it didn't get that ideal window of opportunity during my developmental times. So don't tell me it is in the past because bitch. No it ain't. 

 IVY 

 68:06 

 The idea of like, just get over it is so oversimplified and it's about as helpful as when you're stressing out and people say, Well, just don't think about stressful things. Well, thank you very much. I've never thought about just not thinking about stressful things. This changes everything. I shall never be stressed out again. I will just forever thought police myself. I will make sure I never think of a stressful thing again. Thank you so much for changing my entire life. Just get over it. Is that is just as helpful. 

I'm sorry, it just makes you sound like a jackass. Like I don't have a whole lot else to say on this. And I will give you as just a simplified answer as you are trying to give me as far as just get over it. Okay. Well, then you just stop being an asshole. There we go. I will exchange one oversimplified thing for another. 

 AUTUMN 

 69:04 

 I'm laughing. But yes, I agree with that. I will just get over it. You can just stop being an asshole. I feel like you have more option to not be an asshole. Hopefully. It's terrible. 

Okay, So let's go ahead and go on to number ten on the list. And this one is also invalidating as well as almost all of these others are. And that's the idea of it's not that big of a deal. And this is usually said regarding triggers. You're overreacting. 

And so something happens, your environment, you have a trauma response because that's what your brain has wired you to do. And so it’s like, oh, but it's not that big of a deal. You're just overreacting to it. Yeah, exactly. I am over reacting to this specific thing in my environment right now. And that's again, because my trauma isn't in the past. My trauma is in the body. And so what you're seeing is not a reaction to the thing in my environment, it's a reaction to what happened to me. These are responses that were drilled into our brain and they were drilled into, cliched terms, but the more primal part. They were put into the amygdala, they were put in as survival responses. 

You know, the idea of a war veteran ducking at a firework is the most cliched but perfect example of this. The firework is not going to hurt them, but their body made sure that when that sort of explosion went off, they hit the ground and that is how they survived. That is why they are back on friendly soil right now, because their body taught them that, not their logical mind. They didn't have to think about it and go, golly, gosh, that's sure a big boom and somebody just blew up in front of me because of it. Maybe next time I hear it, I should hit the ground. If our brains took that time to process, we would be dead. And so their body took over, their amygdala took over. And as soon as that boom happened, they learn drop before you can even consciously, logically process it. They learned drop, hit the ground duck. And that's how trauma and triggers work for so many of us. 

Whatever that trigger happens to be: a dirty dishes in the sink, a brush of hair against your skin, a certain perfume. Our bodies learned what to do to survive, and now we have to tell them not to do that?  It's like telling your body how my hypothalamus is working isn't right. So I am now logically going to control what my hypothalamus does to make it make sense for the environment. We don't have that kind of control. So yes, we are over reacting to this specific thing that you see in front of us, but we are quite logically and survivally reacting to the trauma that is still inside of us. We are providing the reaction that helped us to live and survive. And it was encoded so deeply that that's not something we can easily just alter. Just as you cannot decide to start making your thyroid do something differently. 

 IVY 

 72:08 

This is another one that I don't have a whole lot more to add to what Autumn said, because I think what she said really did cover most of the bases. The only thing that I would really add is just to remember that you are the center of your own universe, but other people don't operate the same way that you do. It's not that big of a deal. Okay. Yeah, it's not that big of a deal to you. 

Humans tend to be egocentric beings. It's built into us for the purposes of survival. But just because something is not a big deal to you does not mean that it's not a big deal to somebody else. And we have reiterated that point again and again throughout this episode for a damn good reason, because it is something we constantly need to be reminded of as people, as humans, that our personal experience is not particularly relevant to another's personal experience. Something not being a big deal to you means fuck all nothing when it comes to other people. And I think it's very important for us to remember that. 

And there are some people who genuinely will not care. They don't want to hear that message because they think that they are the center of the entire universe. You're not. If it's not a big deal to you, good for you. I'm happy for you that it's not a big deal for you. I'm happy for you that this doesn't have to be a trigger for you, that this was not something that was actively associated with the trauma that you experienced. That is wonderful and amazing for you, but that doesn't mean anything for anyone else. 

You can be the center of your own universe all damn day. But keep your thoughts to yourself. It doesn't matter if it's a big deal to you. If it's a big deal to somebody else, then that's just the reality that they have. 

 IVY 

 74:13 

So let's move on to number 11 on our list. And this is actually one I hear not just with trauma, but with so many mental health things, you know, whether it's anxiety or depression, an that’s just focus on the positive. Like, I don't know whoever thought this was helpful. If this is just a leftover from all our invalidation, if this actually works for some people. I don't see how anybody perceives this is helpful.  

 AUTUMN 

 74:44 

I kind of get this one. I don't think it's ultimately helpful to just always focus on the positive and only focus on the positive. But I do understand the appeal of this, both for the people that say it and for the people who try to do it. For the people that say it, it's like giving encouragement, but also you want it to benefit you. 

I'm sorry, but that's part of what it is like. People are uncomfortable talking about painful or difficult topics. Generally, people don't want to hear about them. They don't want to discuss them. They don't want to be somebody's sounding board for them. And so I do think that there's some degree of selfishness going on there, telling somebody, well just think about the positives. Okay, I get on some level you are saying that for me, but you're also saying it for you because you don't want to have to think about these things yourself and you don't want to have to discuss these things. So I get why it appeals to the people saying it. 

I also can understand how it might appeal to some of the people who are hearing it where everything is just all love and light and you have all of this compassion and you're just this amazing person that just tries to focus on the positives only and just appreciate and be grateful for all things and all people and trying to be ultimately understanding of everybody and just smile because smiling makes everybody feel better. And when you feel better that people around you feel better and then it creates a positive feedback loop and then everybody is in a better space. It's a pretty idea. It does not fix anything, but it does allow you for a while to kind of cover things up and mask them and pretend like everything is okay. 

And to be fair, sometimes that is something that you need. The healing journey is a lot more complex and a lot more up and down than a lot of people think it is, especially people who have not experienced trauma themselves. We like the idea of things being linear. We like the idea of things just always progressing with forward momentum. Trauma recovery is a lot messier than that. 

I understand the appeal of going into this like positivity space, but it becomes toxic positivity very quickly because you just want to focus on the positives and you want to ignore all the painful things, all the bad things that happen. You want to be love and light all the time. You want to be a source of light and hope in this world. I get the appeal because I've not only had people say this to me who have not experienced trauma, I have also had people say this to me who have experienced trauma because for them it's how they're trying to deal with their trauma. 

And I think it's, for a lot of people, something that they do in fits and starts. It's where they're at in their journey at that time, because sometimes in your journey you literally cannot handle the pain that you feel or the anger that you feel, and you just want to be happy again, even if it's forced happiness, even if you're guilt tripping yourself into being happy. For the love of God, you just want to feel happy for a while. So I can understand where this comes from. I can understand the appeal of it. 

I don't think that this is helpful in the long run. I think that this is one of those things where there has to be a balance. Because it's also possible to go too far in the other direction where you're only focused on the pain, where you're only focused on the negativity and the anger and all of those things. And I think that's part of the journey of healing your trauma is those ups and downs. And those moments of like, no, I just really need to be in this moment where I am immersed in these negative feelings. And then you have other times where you're like, I don't ever want to feel negative things again and it's all over the place. And then you have these people from the outside who are also trying to pull you out of this negative space because they love you and they do want what's best for you. And also they don't really want to deal with your anger. 

So I think this is one of these kind of cultural things that we're all sort of prone to. Both people who have experienced trauma and people who have not experienced trauma because trauma recovery is fucking messy. So I get the idea. Just focus on the positive. I don't think that's a long term solution. I think there are times when you need to focus on the positive. I think there are times when you need to let yourself sink into the negativity and feel that too. But I don't think that as an outsider, you should be determining for another person what they should be feeling in that moment.

I do understand when somebody that you love is really sinking and you can watch them drown and you feel powerless to help them and you really want to pull them out of it because it's not only painful for them, it's also painful for you. I totally fucking get it, believe me. Even as somebody who has been through trauma. I have also loved a lot of people who have been through trauma, and it sucks to watch them flounder, especially for long periods of time. And I understand being concerned. I really do. And I understand wanting to help. And I'm not saying that trying to help is bad, but just telling somebody to focus on the positives is not enough, and that's not ultimately helpful in the long run. And there are times when people legitimately need to just sink into all of the pain and anger that they feel because that is also part of recovery for them.

 AUTUMN 

 80:01 

And if that is your concern, that they have really sunk down into that negativity and they're stuck there and they just can't get out on their own, there are much better ways to approach that. And part of that can take into account some of what Ivy said.  State what you're seeing. You know, I I feel like you've been in a really negative space lately. There's a lot of negative focus that I'm hearing from you. Is this where you need to be right now? Are you capable of being there right now? And then depending on those answers, if they do want to try to move out of that to a more positive focus or they're not able to handle it and they need to move to that positive focus, again, finding constructive actual ways to assist them in increasing a more positive focus and gratitude and things along those lines. As opposed to just telling them to focus on the positive. 

Part of the reason I do hate this one, though, and I find it very harmful, is because I feel like some of the meta-communication that comes with this is very similar to the whole manifesting idea, which is essentially that if you can't be positive and you can't manifest things, well, that's your fault. And again, like I said at the start of this one, this isn't always a choice for us. We don't always get the option. Telling me to focus on the positive and then when I can't because maybe I am trying to be more positive and I get that I'm such a drag and I want to make people around me happy, but I physically can't. Now I'm failing and that just helps me even more because now I'm in a negative place and I'm a fucking failure. So thank you for that. 

It's like I don't I don't get a choice. I didn't choose to have a spleen. I didn't choose to go through this depressive episode. I didn't choose to have my brain wired for trauma. Those are all equivalent sentences. 

Okay. So let's go ahead and move down to number 12 on our list. This is one of Ivy's absolute favorites. And yes, I am being sarcastic here: But they’re family. Ivy, why don't you talk to us about why you love this phrase so much? 

 IVY 

 82:02 

 If you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you've probably heard me address this before. I have gotten this so many times over the years. There have been several family members of mine over the years that I have completely cut contact with. Some of them I have brought back into my life. Some of them I have just cut contact permanently. Everybody has an opinion when you cut contact with family. And that opinion is but they’re family. So you have to forgive them and you have to love your family. And I know they can be frustrating, but everybody's family is a little kooky, so you just have to accept them just as they are because they're family. You love your family, right? You've got to forgive them. You have to start talking to your family again. Everybody needs their family. We all need family. 

First of all, fuck y'all. If you need family, then you go be with your family that you need. You don't get to determine for other people how close they are to their family or how not close they are to their family. You don't get to determine for other people that because they share the same bloodline or genetic material with somebody that they are required to be in that person's life and to love them. That is such an archaic, outdated way of thinking. You don't get to tell another person that they have to let an abusive individual into their life simply because they are family. 

And like I said before, you are the center of your own universe, and that is fine. We are all the center of our own universe. But how things operate in your universe is not how they operate in everybody else's. And you don't get to force people to follow the same rules that you do just because it worked for you.

 AUTUMN 

 83:47 

I often assume this is another one where there's just this extremely limited perspective on what family is. These individuals that come from healthy environments that cannot really comprehend the horrors that can be perpetuated by family. I used to work in mental health with kids. I have seen children who are covered, 90% of their body was covered, in burn scars because for their entire 14 years of life how they were punished by their family was to have boiling water or boiling oil dumped on them. I have seen children who have been sodomized by their family so often that even at 16 years old, they cannot hold their bowels because their rectum has been destroyed by their families’ penises. And I am sorry if that's graphic and I'm sorry if that's harsh, but I feel like a lot of individuals that use this phrase cannot comprehend the horrors. And if it takes that kind of harsh graphic language to portray that, there it is.

Having worked in mental health for the children, I am very passionate about this idea that but they’re family is destructive. Because I've seen even legal systems that believe kids should be with their family. And I have seen what families can do to kids. And I have seen what a legal system that is fighting to keep a kid with a family it should not be with has done to that child and how it has destroyed them. It's not okay. So this one I am passionate on and this is a this is a hill I will Die on with Ivy as well. Because families can be very destructive and being family does not trump all or excuse any of that kind of thing. 

All right. I'm going to try and step down off of my soapbox here and we'll go ahead and move on to number 13. And this is when somebody, they acknowledge you're having trauma and they're not necessarily invalidating it, but they say, why didn't you say anything sooner? 

So a lot of times when we are going through trauma, we don't speak out about it. And I think the rest of the world is confused, like, why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you trust me? Why didn't you open up?  

As children, your family is your everything and is your life. It is your safety. And also that's your normality. Because if you were born into that and that's just always how it's been, why would you say anything about how it's always been? Why would you say anything about having a microwave in your home? Why would you go report that to teachers? Oh, my gosh, my parents have a microwave. It's just normal to you, right? Well, that's what abusive behaviors can be to a lot of children. So they don't think to say anything until they accidentally blurt out a secret. 

But with that as well, sometimes there's too much fear. A lot of times there's too much shame because we do feel like it's our fault - made to feel that way by the people that have perpetuated the trauma, but also because of a lot of the phrases we talk about on this list today because of society as well, there's too much shame. We're afraid of the judgment. 

And for a lot of us, we're terrified of the unknown. There were times I'm pretty sure that Ivy and I had talked about, well, what if we found a way to ask for help just so we could eat? But it came down to, but what if we get taken out of the home? What if we get separated? What if we get put with this foster family? What if? What if? Because we lived with these horrors for so long, we knew what they could be. And as I said earlier, also, we knew that people went through much worse. Even at 12, 13, 14 years old, I was acutely aware that people were going through way worse than I was. And so since I knew that was possible and I was always already in a horrible situation, I was honestly terrified to try to step into something unknown. 

I mean, there's a lot of reasons why people take their time to open up about trauma, to say anything, either to escape it or to just share the fact with you that they experienced it. 

 IVY 

 87:39 

Autumn made a lot of good points there. And one of the things that she mentioned actually brought something up for me that I have been thinking about off and on recently as part of my own healing journey. Autumn was talking about when you go through those things as a child to you it’s very normalized. So it doesn't occur to you to say anything. 

And I have so many memories of being on the playground with my friends at recess and sharing stories with them. And we were all just talking about life at home. And as a child, I didn't think anything of it. But I think back now as an adult, with all the years of experience I have and all the things that I know and the conversations I was having with my peers, with my close friends at school, and I was obviously not the only one dealing with abusive situations. Because all of us were sharing stories of physical abuse, sexual abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse. And we covered all the bases and we weren't crying about it. 

We weren't like - we were just discussing it like it was, you know, what we did that day. We went to the grocery store and things we got there. We were just talking about it like it was so casual and normal. So not only is it not normalized within a household, sometimes it's also normalized among the peer group as well. 

It never occurred to me to say something to one of my teachers or to one of the other adults around me about what I was experiencing or about some of the things that my friends were experiencing. And they were really intense. It was some really intense shit. Talking about things like incest going on. And that's just - it was so normalized among my peer group. 

Now, I'm not saying it's not a big deal because obviously it's a very big deal. But to us it wasn't because that was just life. That's what happened in families. And even when we were kind of uncomfortable with it because it was like this was painful or this, you know, I was scared or whatever. Like it was still something that we just talked about so casually. 

And if you grow up like that, where it's not only normalized within your family, but it's also normalized within your peer group, you could go years and years and years of your life, be well into adulthood before you even realize that what you've been going through and what your friends have been going through is not normal and it's not okay. And it's actually very destructive. It can take a long time before you even have the ability to recognize how bad a situation is. 

The other thing that I want to mention here is that I understand that when you love somebody and you care about them deeply and all you want to do is help. And it hurts so much to know that they were suffering and you didn't know and you didn't do anything. I know that's incredibly painful and that's very difficult. But please, in this situation try not to make it about you. Because if this person  had the courage and the awareness and the ability to come to you to tell you about this now, be thankful that they came and told you about it now. 

You can't go back and do more than you did. You can't go back and demand to know more from them earlier so that you could have saved them. I know it hurts. And that's something for you that you also have to process and heal. Because when you do love somebody, you want to be there for them. And knowing that you didn't see, didn't see signs or you didn't do more, that is in some way traumatizing itself. 

And that is something that you'll have to process. But in that moment when they are coming to you, they are incredibly vulnerable and they need you to be present for them now. So please try not to make it about you. Later on, maybe you can have that conversation and ask them those questions. But when they are coming to you initially for the first time, it's not helpful to ask Why didn't you tell me sooner? Why didn't you say something sooner? That's not helpful. They didn't say something sooner because for whatever reason, they felt like they couldn't. The fact of the matter is, they trust you enough to tell you now, and they believe that you are a safe space for them. So be that safe space for them. 

 AUTUMN 

 92:01 

 That's why that particular phrase can also be so harmful, because like Ivy said, you know, they're seeing you as a safe place. For many of us that have gone through trauma, our concepts of safety and trust are completely broken and eroded and gone. If they have finally found a means of trusting you or seeing you as a sense of safety, that in and of itself is a huge feat. And if you go in with accusatory and making it about you and why didn't you say anything sooner? You did wrong in this situation? You made me feel bad about not rescuing you. It's going to just break that trust and eradicate that safe place and make it that much more likely that they're not going to open up to someone who can help them in the future or even open up to you more so that you can help them if they need that. 

So another phrase that often gets said is, I know what you're going through. This is number 14 on our list. I know what you're going through. This is actually a pet peeve that was handed down to me by my mother. She used to hate the phrase: I know how you're feeling. No, you don't. You don't fucking know how I’m feeling. 

And as I have really grown up into adulthood and I understand that I'm autistic and I'm neurodivergent and I'm PTSD, and I have all of these mental health issues, and I understand how different that makes me from neurotypical people, I really hate this phrase. Because a lot of times it is neurotypical people that have told me, Well, I know what you're going through. I understand how you feel. No, you don't. You don't even have the slightest inkling of how I am feeling, of how I believe, of how I think, of how I perceive the world. You don't know at all. So don't even. Don't even come at me with that. 

And now there are other people, though, that have gone through that have gone through some shit and they say, you know, I know what you're feeling. Been there, been there, and I get what you're trying to do. You're trying to connect with me, you're trying to validate. And maybe for some people this could be beneficial. Maybe if you're in your relationship, you know, that's what the person needs. Okay. But I feel like a lot of times it feels more like you're trying to drown out my voice. I am opening up to you and I'm trying to explain something and you're trying to say that you completely understand my experience, that you have had that experience and you're taking away its uniqueness and you're taking away my ownership of it. For some people, maybe it's comforting to know that somebody else feels that, but for a lot of us, it can feel more like you're trying to take our voice and trying to put your story in place of ours. And if we're fighting to be heard so that we can heal and get help, that doesn't feel good. 

 IVY 

 94:42 

I agree with that and I would add that this phrase also feels dismissive to me. And I mean that kind of from the standpoint of that quote from Fight Club: “When people think you're dying, they really, really listen to you instead of just waiting for their turn to speak.”And so when somebody says, I know what you're going through, Oh, yeah, I've been there. Oh, yeah, I got you. 

To me, it feels like they're saying, okay, yeah, you don't need to explain it anymore. Move on, move on, move on already. Yeah, I know what you mean. I've experienced that before too. Oh, I got it. Yeah. Okay. Move on, move on, move on. And so it feels like they're not actually listening. They're just assuming that their experience is identical to yours, and therefore they automatically know exactly what you're going through and what your feeling is. So just move on. Come on, hustle. Let's move forward. 

And then they usually end up sharing their own experience as well, which is fine. Like there is a way to do this that is better than saying, I know what you're feeling or I know what you're going through or I've been there. There is a way to do this that feels more validating and less dismissive, and there is a way to share your own experiences without overtaking the entire situation. We're not saying that trying to relate to somebody and trying to empathize with somebody is bad.  As humans, we try to understand other people better, like reframing it around something that we're familiar with, with something that already feels personal. 

And because that's how I relate for a really long time, I had a bad habit of interjecting my own experiences and not being a good listener. And I've had to work very, very hard on this and I feel like there's a lot of neurodivergent people who struggle with just being patient in general. Because where our minds go a million miles a second and where we're wanting to engage, we're wanting to relate, we're wanting to interact or wanting to be there for them. And it's go, go, go, go, go. Because in our heads we're always go, go, go, go, go. 

That's not particularly helpful in these situations. This is really a time when we want to practice the skill of patience and really listen to them and give them their time to speak before we start talking. Because even if you do share some similar experiences and some similar feelings, it's never going to be completely identical anyway. 

 AUTUMN 

 96:56 

 With this phrase specifically, I would also say it's not so much the literal words, but it is a lot of that meta-communication that's carried with it. And that's why those words, like I was saying, like dismissive, like you're hurrying it along. That's the meta-communication that you're getting. That's the subcontext that’s tacked onto that phrase. Like I said, you need to really be aware of the words you use and I would say also the meta communication. And finding a way to really foster that sort of connection between you and the other person. And that phrase probably isn't going to be the best one to do that with. 

So number 15 on the list, let me help you. For those of us that have gone through trauma, a lot of times our safety is completely eroded, our trust is broken. We take a long time to build a relationship that is safe enough that we can open up, that we can accept help, or ask for help. And telling us that we have to do that is not going to foster the safe place at all. Usually when people are trying to force things on us and take our control away from us, that does not make us feel safe. And when I say us, I'm not just talking about trauma survivors. I'm talking about humans in general, here. We don't feel safe when people try to wrest our control from us and force us to open up to them. That's not really how you build safety. 

IVY 

 98:12

This is another one of those ones where the phrasing they use matters and also the tone that you're using matters as well. Because there is a big difference between let me help you and is there anything that I can do to help you or I am here if you need anything. I love you. I want to support you. I am here if you need anything for me at all. There's a huge difference there because when you're saying, let me help you or I'm going to help you. You are forcing yourself on them. 

 Most of the time, you are going to get much further and actually be much more helpful to that person by just consistently being present for them by offering the help. Not being up in their face about it, just continually being present for them. Asking if there's anything that you can do to help. 

But here's the thing with asking that question. They may not always know. Sometimes a person really does want help and maybe they do trust you, but they don't even know where to begin in asking for it. I think that probably happens quite a bit with trauma survivors and probably a lot with Neurodivergent people too. Where maybe they do want help and maybe they do love you and they actually do trust you. But even if you ask what you can do to help, they don't even know how to answer that question because they don't know what they need in that moment. 

And this is another one of those areas where being patient is very important. They may not always be receptive to your help. It may take time to earn their trust, reminding them that you see them and you love them and you know, they're going through some stuff. You may not know exactly what, but you can see that they're having a hard time and you are there for them. Even if they don't want to take advantage of it, you are there for them, just consistently reminding them of that and being a constant and a consistent presence in their life and just being somebody of integrity and showing over time that you are somebody that they can trust and just being supportive and validating of them and encouraging of them, that will do much more in the long run than you just stepping in and saying, okay, I know it needs to happen here. Let me help you. 

 AUTUMN 

 100:36 

 You know, Ivy did bring up an important point that a lot of times a lot of people may not know what they need. And also just being too general, even the idea of I am here for you if you need me or whatever you need, let me know can be also unhelpful. Because they're too disorganized to reach out for something. And so I would say it is okay to offer specific help. 

I would also say with this, a lot of times we get so focused with trauma and with a lot of mental health things and let's help you psychologically. You're struggling psychologically. Let me be your therapist. Let me help you on the healing journey. But a lot of us that are struggling with our mental health, if we’re struggling psychologically, also just need help with life. 

And so maybe the person's not ready to open up to you, but you see, they're struggling and they need help. Offering to do the laundry, the dishes, to walk their dog for them, to babysit their kids. Do not discount those kinds of actual physical help as well. And those often can be a little bit more forceful. Like, hey, you know, you're looking like you're really stressed out. Let me watch the kids for a couple hours and you can take off. It'll be great. I've been wanting to play with, I don't know - kids names. Apparently I don't know any kids right now to pop any names out, but you see what I'm saying. So don't either discount the idea of actually offering physical help. You don't need to be their therapist or anything. You can actually do something to help them that's not psychological and mental health 

 IVY 

 102:02 

 By doing those things for them, these very practical things that don't require them to open up and be super vulnerable with you - If you're looking to gain somebody's trust, that's a pretty good way to do it because it's not requiring a whole lot of vulnerability from them right away. You are proving that you are consistently there for them and you love them and you support them because you are actively being there and doing things to make their life easier. That can go a very long way towards actually earning somebody trust.

Because often a lot of people who have been through trauma and they have lost trust in people in general is not just because of abuse that was inflicted on them. I mean, that's definitely part of it. But often it's also because they were let down again and again and again. Trauma is not always the result of direct abuse. It's often wrapped up also with just being let down again and again and again by somebody they desperately wanted to trust. And so when you consistently show up in their life and you are helping them out with those practical things, it shows them that, one, you're sticking around and two, you actually do care enough to be consistent. And over time they will be much more receptive to actually opening up to you and being more and being more vulnerable with you overall. And you can help them from that mental and emotional standpoint as well. 

 AUTUMN 

 103:17 

 Another one which is really closely related to this one, to the idea of Let me help you is number 16 on our list, which is you need to talk about it. Because trauma is kept in our body, because it's programmed in that way, when we talk about it, we can then sometimes re-experience it. Because a lot of times that's what remembering trauma really is. It's a memory that's in your body. And as a survival thing that our genes do, it puts you back in that state so that you are primed to survive it again. So when we talk about the trauma, it's putting us back into that trauma state. So forcing a trauma survivor or even encouraging a trauma survivor to talk about their trauma can be a very bad idea. 

So unless you have a lot of knowledge, a lot of skills, you’re a counselor, you’re a therapist, going this route is not necessarily a good idea. Telling the person they need to talk about it. They have to talk about it. Maybe at some point on their healing journey for them, discussing it may help, but a lot of times when it comes to trauma, you need other therapies to assist you. These are often somatic therapies. You're talking about body work, you're talking about EMDR, you're talking about things that are physically happening because the old model of talk therapy, while it can be very beneficial for a lot of things, can sometimes be extremely harmful when it comes to trauma. 

 IVY 

 104:47 

 Even if it's not actively harmful to talk about it, it may also not really be helping. The therapist that I currently see, she does a lot of somatic work and EMDR, which is the first person that I've worked with that does that kind of work. I have always done just talk therapy or self-help stuff. It was really just focused on mentally kind of journaling and getting things out there and talking things through. 

Because over time it can almost seem when you said the same thing over and over, you told the same story over and over, it becomes so routine. It's like you almost disconnect from the feeling that was originally associated with that story. But I never felt like I was really healing from it just by talking through it. Not that there wasn't good things to be gained from it. I've gotten a lot of useful insights and worked through lots of different things by utilizing talk therapy.

But it wasn't until I tarted doing somatic work and EMDR with my current therapist that I actually felt like I was processing some of that early childhood trauma. Because there was so much of it that was locked up in my body that I had never had the opportunity to be processed. So even if it's not actively retraumatizing somebody to talk about it, even if it's not damaging them to talk about it, it may also just not really be helping them either. 

I also think that, yeah, sometimes there are times when it's important for somebody to talk about what's going on with them or talk about what they experienced. But you may not be the right person for them to talk to, and that may not be anything personal against you. They just may not feel like they can talk to you about it. Maybe what they need is, yeah, to talk about it, but to talk about it with a therapist or to talk about it with somebody who's more outside of the situation. 

I feel like often the people who say you need to talk about it, implying you need to talk to them about it, are close loved ones. They're your partner, they're family members. They're really close friends and they're trying to help and they're well-intentioned and they want to understand you better and want to understand what's going on better. But they're not ultimately the people that will be the best option as far as to talk to you. 

There are things that go on with me that, while Kelvin and I have a great relationship and I love the man and I trust him with my life, there are certain things I don't feel comfortable talking with him about. There are certain things that I don't feel comfortable talking with him about. They’re things that I only talk to my therapist about because I'm not ready to share those things even with the people closest to me. 

And sometimes the reason I'm not ready to share those things with the people closest to me is because it's something that I'm processing that has to do with them. There are times when you're dealing with something that it's not helpful to talk with the people who are closest to you because it either involves them or because you don't have enough sorted out in your head yet, or you don't know what it is that you need from them, and you're trying to sort these things out and maybe you do need to talk about it. But with somebody else, somebody who's not so close to the situation and somebody who's a professional or who can give you an objective viewpoint on it. So, yes, sometimes people do need to talk about things. But you may not be the person they need to talk to. 

 AUTUMN 

 107:56 

 All right. Number 17 on the list. And this one, I know it annoys the shit out of a lot of people because I see a lot of this on my Facebook. But it made you stronger. Like I should be grateful for being traumatized. 

And I get that there are two sides to this coin, and part of it is to some degree, yes, I would say I am a stronger person because of the battle I fought, not because of the injury done to me, if that makes sense. I mean, it's kind of like saying you broke your leg, so now you're a stronger person for it. No and yes. Yeah, I might be a stronger person because I've had to build that muscle up and I now have to be more aware of how it can be broken. And as a sweet bonus, I can kind of predict the weather because I know when a storm's coming because it hurts like a motherfucker every single time one blows in. So yeah, sure, I'm stronger. 

But also that bone is weaker. And also I had to dedicate hours or days or in the case of trauma, years of my life to healing that bone. And because I had to heal that bone, I missed out on a ton of different experiences and ability to invest my resources in anything else. Not to mention that, you know what? I didn't ask to be stronger. I was a three-year-old child. What I needed was a hug not to be stronger. 

So I get this as a double sided coin that in some ways, yes, I am a stronger person because of the battle I fought to deal with my trauma and to survive my trauma. But in many ways I'm also a weaker person because of it and further behind on life and what I would like to be and who I would like to be. Just because I'm stronger in some ways doesn't make it all okay. 

 IVY 

 109:45 

 Personally, I think this is one where you have to take into account the person that you're actually dealing with because there's no blanket way to interact with people who have experienced a trauma. It had never occurred to me to be bothered by somebody saying that. Because for me, I do feel like I'm a hell of a lot stronger and I am very proud of how far I have come and how strong I have become as a result of everything that I went through and how I dealt with everything that I went through. And so for me, this is not a triggering thing. 

For me, I appreciate when people point out that I am strong, that I am stronger. And yes it sucks to have been through trauma, but I do see my strength as such a huge part of who I am as a person, something that I really love about myself and it's something that I really value about myself. 

And I think part of the reason to why it doesn't bother me is because for so many years, so often I got treated as though I was damaged goods, as though I was weak or as though I was broken, as though I couldn't help that I was so fucked up. It was unavoidable because of everything that I had gone through. Obviously you're going to be weaker and you're going to need somebody to protect you and you're going to need somebody to save you. And that was always so invalidating to me, but also enraging because that is not how I wanted to see myself. 

And it is not how I saw myself. I saw myself as somebody who was resilient, who was a survivor, who was strong, who was willing to fight, who was willing to take risks in order to get my autonomy and get my independence. I saw myself as somebody who was better as a result of my trauma. It sucks to go through trauma, but if you have to go through it, I tried to make the most out of it that I could and I very much value my strength. 

And so I think for me, when people say it made you stronger or they point out the strength that I have now as a result of the trauma that I went through, I take pride in that. And so it never occurred to me that other people would have a negative reaction to it. Though once I became aware of that, I could also see exactly where they were coming from. Because, yeah, it does leave you with a lot of issues. Yeah, you get stronger because you do what you have to do to survive and that becomes part of you. 

And there are some perks that come with that strength. Among them resilience, resourcefulness, adaptability. But man, it would have been great if we could have learned it in some way that wasn't as damaging. I get it. It's not how I feel about it, though. And so I feel like you should probably be careful with how you approach this. 

I think there's also other ways to go about it, even if you don't know the person really well. I think there are ways to validate both sides of them. The part of them that is a fighter, that is a survivor, that is resourceful and adaptable and brilliant and amazing and stronger. Because they made that up themselves in response to the trauma they had. They didn't let it break them. I think there are ways to validate that, while also at the same time validating that it is really fucked up, that you had to go through that and you didn't deserve to go through that. You deserve so much better. And it's awful that you that you went through that. It's awful that you experienced that, that you were treated that way. But man, is it amazing what you made of yourself even in spite of all of that. 

I think there is a way to validate both sides of it. And it's probably very important to be able to validate both sides of it, because even as somebody who does take it as a point of pride, that I am so strong of resilience in response to the trauma that I experienced, I do also appreciate when people see what I've been through and they don't downplay it when they see it and they recognize it and they say, Holy shit, you went through a lot and it is amazing that you even came out of that, much less came out of it as well as you did.

I think if you're going to say it made you stronger, you should add a little bit more to that, be validating both sides of it and don't just make it about, but you're stronger now. Don't just treat it as though they should be thankful they went through a trauma. I would paint it in a different light. 

 AUTUMN 

 113:51 

 I love the suggestion of validating both sides of that. I think it is absolutely spot on. And really being aware of who you talk to and how you talk to them. Because Ivy and I shared genes, shared environment, shared history, shared trauma. We react to this very differently.

Because part of what I hear with when somebody says, But it made you stronger is one) that you're just telling me I should be grateful for being traumatized. But two), it's also this bar that you've set for me that I should be stronger than other people, than everyone else. And I already felt like I'm not enough because of my trauma and am scared to death to not be enough. Because when I'm not enough, people literally could die. Because my mom did make suicide attempts, because I was not enough. So there is a life and death issue here. And so you just set a bar for me that ties right into my trauma that I may not meet that and I won't meet it because I am weaker in a lot of areas because of it. So, again. Being aware of who you're talking to. Watching your words very carefully. And I really think, like Ivy said, validating both sides of that is going to be so important. 

And another one that I think you really need to know the person and you need to watch how you say this and you need to make sure this is going to be helpful for them. Because I think for a lot of us, it's not.  It was God's plan or it was destiny or the universe was giving you a growing lesson. And again, there's this idea that you should be grateful for being hurt

And I mean just looking at that idea right there - If somebody mugs you and kicks you in the kidneys, would you appreciate it if they stood over you and told you you should be grateful for this learning experience? You should be grateful for the motivation to now get self-defense classes. That's not really a great feeling. And that's kind of what it feels like with either of these statements when you indicate that I should be grateful for this. 

And then also just that whole idea of God's plan, destiny, growth lesson. For some people's healing journeys, those ideas are extremely beneficial.  For others, not so much. Those who have had religious trauma, God is not going to help them. That is going to be a very big issue for them. Or other people like me who have a lot of issues with control. And so when you talk about destiny, that terrifies the fuck out of me because I want to have at least some control of my life and I need to have some control of my life so that I can feel some sort of safety so they can continue living. 

 IVY 

 116:25 

The only thing that I would add to this that I think is extremely important to note is if you are dealing with somebody who does have religious trauma, especially in a religion where they always felt that God was more of a disciplinarian or authoritarian than he is like a loving father figure, telling somebody that the horrible things that they went through is part of God's plan that may just make them feel like, well, God doesn't love me. I must have done something to anger him. He must not care about me. And if God doesn't love me or care about me, I'm not worthy of good things happening. Then what's the point of going on? I'm not going to be worthy of anybody's love and nobody's going to care about me. I don't deserve to have anything good happen for me. There's no point living anymore. 

I'm like, that is something that could quickly cause somebody to spiral out and take their own life. So I think you need to be extremely careful about talking about God's will and God's plan for your life when you're dealing with somebody who just went through a significant trauma because you have no idea how on edge they may already be, and that may be the thing that pushes them over the edge.

 AUTUMN 

 117:36 

You do really have to understand your relationship. Like all of these phrases, the actual direct phrases and the meta-communication that they carry, that subcontext, really understanding that relationship. 

Let's go ahead and move on to number 19 on the list. And this is one I actually wanted to put on there. And maybe this is going to be like super niche and nobody else cares about this. But I don't see this talked about a lot and I wanted to talk about it. And so since I'm part of the podcast, I'm like, We're putting this on here. And so number 19 on the list is You are enough. 

And so I know a lot of people, including myself, who went through trauma, especially childhood trauma. They were usually the caretaker. They ended up having to be the people pleaser. And they have a good enough complex. They're never good enough. And being autistic as well. I am very objective about what good enough is. And the reality is, is I was not good enough. And so when somebody tells me I am enough, it angers me because either one) you're saying that I chose to fail or two) you're completely invalidating my experience. But neither is a really good feeling for me. 

I was not enough. I got chosen at 13 to raise my sister, to take care of my ill mom, to take care of a household of five people, to raise 20 dogs and like 30 cats. I was not enough. Because I was not enough. I could not protect my sister. I could not keep all of these puppies from dying. I think I buried dozens of pets by myself because I was not enough. And so when you come back and say, Oh, but you were enough, you are enough, then essentially I'm hearing: So then I just chose to fail my sister. I chose to allow her to get hurt.

I think a better way to approach this is to say that it's okay. Because part of where this stems from is the fact that you weren't enough, you were too young, you were too vulnerable, too much was put on you. And that's okay that you crumbled. And to validate that feeling of it. 

And I think another piece of this also, because at least for me, stems from the idea of control. And so I feel like I have to be enough because if I'm enough, I can control things. I can control whether or not Mommy kills herself today, if I'm enough. That's where this is stemming from. And so when you can help that person realize also that being enough or not enough is also irrelevant because you can do everything you want in the world, you can be the most perfect person and bad shit still happens. 

This one is mostly on the list for me. I don't know if Ivy’ll have a lot to say, but when somebody tells you they're not good enough and you just come back with, Oh, but you are: not fucking helpful. 

 IVY 

 120:37 

 I don't really have a whole lot to add to this one. This is not one that I've ever really struggled with. I don't think I can totally understand why Autumn does. We played very different roles in the household. Obviously, Autumn had a tremendous amount of responsibility put on her. I was always treated as though I should never be trusted with any responsibility of any kind because I would never do anything right. So I don't know. 

Like the relationship that I have with the idea of being enough is kind of abstract because for me. I'm like, okay, enough of what? Enough for what? Enough for who? What does that even mean?  I don't even know what that means. What would enough be? I don't see enough as being even really like a real concept. There's nothing concrete about enough.

Because you can always change where the bar of expectation is set and enough would suggest that you're comparing to somebody else or something else. And like we mentioned earlier in the episode, your experience is completely irrelevant to another person's experience. And so how can you ever set a bar for what enough is? That's a word that has no real meaning because that bar is always moving, because you're always looking at things on a basis of comparison and how can you really compare one thing to another when you're talking about people's life experiences and what they've been through? So I don't really see myself or anybody else as being enough or not enough because that's a word that doesn't mean much of anything to me, you know?

 AUTUMN 

 122:10 

And honestly, I would agree with Ivy on this that enough doesn't really have that much of a meaning. And it is so subjective. And again, this is part of why I say coming back with you are enough is not helpful. Because where that enough comes from is that childhood mindset. Is that three-year-old, that four-year-old. And essentially what you're doing at that point is you are arguing that the four-year-old. You are too. Are not. Are. Too. Are not. That's kind of what it feels like. But when it comes into your ego and your sense of well-being, you're asking me to prove that I'm not enough and you don't want to ask me to do that to get your validation. 

All right. So let's go ahead and move on to the last one on our list, number 20. And I get I get I get I get this is supposed to be well-meaning and assuring. But it typically isn't. Number 20: from now on, everything will be okay. So I know you were hurt and in all of this trauma happened, but it's going to be okay now. You're going to be okay now. Everything's going to be okay now. 

First off. Liar, liar, liar, pants on fire. Just because the trauma ended does not no mean I'm okay. Like we talked about, that trauma is in my body. I am carrying this trauma with me for the rest of my life. It has made changes in me that are irreparable. This is who I am moving forward. And so if my basis of what is okay was before the trauma, I am never going to be okay again. I will find the new okay. I will find a new normal. But you are lying to me.

Also, if I'm just fresh from that trauma, let's take a moment and look at our wonderful mental health system out there where I'm going to magically come up with the amount of money necessary to afford good therapy or wrap-around care. Where I am going to magically on the first try find a therapist that I connect with so easily. Where all of society is going to support me in my mental health growth so that I can continue therapy and do the things I need to do, including calling out from work because I'm feeling overwhelmed today and I need a mental health day. Wait, That's right. None of that exists, does it? 

No, because we're just expected to deal with it and to get over it and to do all these other things on the list that we've talked about today. So if I'm just coming out of the trauma, not only am I still carrying it with me, so things aren't okay there, but also it's not going to be okay. It's going to be an uphill battle and everything is going to be twice as difficult now. Don't lie to me. 

IVY

 124:40 

 It's funny because I have a similar reaction to that, although  don't have as much, I guess, passion as Autumn does. Usually when somebody tells me everything's going to be okay from now on, like I just start laughing. My thought is one of two things. Either you are incredibly naive that you believe that and you will get a rude awakening someday when shit goes awry in your life. Or like Autumn said, you're just lying. 

Like, don't. Don't act like I don't know how the world works. Because every trauma survivor knows that if shit went down once, shit will more than likely go down again. It may not be the same kind of shit. Maybe the first time it was like real hard constipation shit. The next time it's going to be diarrhea all over the place. You never know what form trauma is going to take, but you know, if it happened once, there is always the chance it is going to happen again. More than likely you will experience some other trauma of some kind at some point in your life. 

So it's incredibly amusing to me, the idea that anybody would ever think it's going to be okay. From now on. You will have pockets of okay. You will have pockets of shitstorm. That is life. The idea that it's going to be okay from now on. That's real cute. 

I don't know whether to envy that you can live in that world, whether to be pissed at you for lying to me or whether to sit back and laugh when shit goes awry in your life. And you realize for the very first time that well, fuck, things are not always okay. They will not be okay necessarily from here on out. Maybe bad things will happen again. 

I don't know. I should not take pleasure in that. But when somebody is just so naive, it's going to be okay from here on out. Yeah. Yeah. You think that now? That's cute. 

 AUTUMN 

 126:30 

 I think this one actually gets said a lot because they're trying to comfort the person and they're not really sure what else to say. And honestly, these kind of general platitudes, I don't think are helpful for the reasons I discussed. But I think it's also even more helpful, though, to provide something specific, to give them something to believe in when they've gone so far without belief, and to start setting expectations for a safe reality. Because that's really what you're trying to say. You are safe now. 

And that's okay to say, like, you're safe now in this moment with me. You are safe. If that's true, if you're actually providing a safe place and that person is safe, tell them that, you know. If they are just coming out of the trauma and you're going to be there to support them, tell them that. You know, I understand this is going to be difficult for you. I am here for you every step of the way. If they are moving into your house because you're a foster parent and you're taking this kid who's been traumatized , don’t tell them everything's going to be okay. Tell them I'm going to do everything I can in this household to make sure you're safe, to make sure you're not hurt again. 

But those kinds of concrete statements are going to be so much more comforting and so much more helpful than these general platitudes that are just lies. But as we've said again and again today, everybody's trauma is a little bit different and everybody's experience is a little bit different and everybody's healing journey is different. So maybe the things on this list may not bother person at all, or maybe they would make them completely irate. 

We would love to hear from you to know what things you think should never be said to trauma survivors. If you want to throw my connecting bits so they know where to reach us.

 IVY 

 128:03 

 Sure, you can find us at our website www.differentfunctional.com. You can find us on Facebook as Different Functional. Instagram and TikTok as Different_Functional. We're on Patreon as Different Functional. We have an email address, you can email us at differentfunctional@gmail.com. 

We also have merch on TeePublic. We have lots of good stuff on there now. Some funny things you can put on a t-shirt or sticker, whatever suits your fancy. Although TeePublic is very stingy about who they let be part of their searchable results. So the best way to find that merch is to go to our website and on the homepage there is a link that will lead you to our TeePublic storefront and you can check out what goodies we have there. 

And I think that's pretty much it. Unless you guys want to be awesome, which we know you do, and leave us a rating, a review, anything along those lines, drop us a comment, send us a DM, do any of the things to get in touch with us and do any of the things to let people know that we exist. Please spread the word about the podcast so that we can get some more listeners on here and get a little bit more of a following and create an even bigger community. 

AUTUMN

 129:19 

We appreciate you guys listening as always, and we hope you keep coming back. Any interaction is definitely appreciated. We'd love to know that you are out there listening and supporting us. But also when you do that interaction, whether it's a comment, whether it's a like, whether it's a heart, it does help push us up in those wonderful social media algorithms. So we do get a little bit more exposure and we can grow this audience so that we can keep doing this podcast that we love doing. 

For today, though, we will go ahead and wrap up and we thank you all for listening. As always, remember, different does not mean defective.