Episode 42: You’re So Weird!: Flipping the Social Scripts

Those of us in the neurodivergent community have had our fair share of struggles with social situations. By the standards of the neurotypical world, our social skills come up lacking and we’re often seen as awkward, eccentric, odd, clueless, weird, off-putting, crass, rude, etc…  If you’re neurodivergent, you know what we mean. You probably have a whole list of not-so-nice words that people have used to describe you and backhanded compliments you’ve been given, and we’re sure you’re all too familiar with “that face” people give you when you’ve broken a social rule that you either didn’t understand or didn’t care about. Even if you’ve learned to mask really well chances are still good you’ve committed some social faux pas in your time. But let’s be honest here, a lot of neurotypical social scripts are arbitrary, poorly written, and they just don’t make much sense. So join as we flip the script on neurotypicals for a change and call them out for all the ways in which they’re actually the weirdos here. If you’d like to support us on Patreon you can find us at www.patreon.com/differentfunctional And don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast and leave us a rating and review. Thanks for listening!

AUTUMN 

 0:00 

 Welcome to the Different Functional Podcast where we explore the triumphs and challenges of trauma recovery and being neurodivergent in a neurotypical world. Today we're going to be looking at the fact that while neurotypicals might be the standard, it doesn't necessarily mean that that standard is logical, healthy, or hell, even not weird. 

I am Autumn, the older sister, and for my fact of the day, I'm going to share one of the things that confuses me most about neurotypicals. And this is I guess it's more just like a wonder for me. Do they just not have bursty bits? Because okay, I am constantly overwhelmed by sensory stuff and I have all this information in my head that I want to get out, and I have these extreme emotions, and so I feel like I am constantly bursting with something. But whenever I hang around neurotypicals, they all seem very chill and calm. And so I really wonder, do they just not have any of these bursty bits, or are they just, like, seriously good at suppressing them? 

 IVY 

 1:10 

I feel like they got to have some bursty bits. They may not have as many and they probably have more control over it, but they've got to have some bursty bits. They say the neurotypical people also don't have an inner monologue, which blows my mind, the idea that you don't just always have your own voice in your head all the time. I can't imagine what that would be like, to just have silence in your head most of the time. So maybe they don't have bursty bits. I would think they've got to, though. Everybody has anxious moments or excited moments. They probably just don't have them to the same degree that we do. 

I am Ivy, the younger sister. And while that particular eccentricity of the neurotypicals does confound me, I think what confounds me even more is the normalization of touching complete and total strangers. Like, you just meet somebody, you've never spoken to this person before, you've never laid eyes on them before, but you're expected to touch their hands. I don't know where your hands have been. You don't know me. Why am I making contact with you? And the people that you just meet who are like, oh, I'm a hugger. No, you don't just get to randomly be a hugger with everybody that you encounter. 

I know this sounds super hypocritical of me, considering that I touch people for a living. And obviously I don't always know those people because first time clients, I've never met them before, so I know it's hypocritical of me, but I just don't understand touching complete and total strangers. Like, why do you got to stand so close? Why am I expected to shake hands with you? Why the fuck are you trying to hug me? I don't know you you're a weirdo. 

I don't understand the neurotypical compulsion to touch strangers. That is very odd to me. 

 AUTUMN 

 2:50 

 What I think is kind of odd about it is that it's just to touch other humans. Because, again, one of my bursty bits, I want to touch everything. What is that, a cactus? I want to touch that. What is that, a cat? I want to touch that. What is that, your hair? I want to touch that. I want to touch everything. But they look at me like I'm a complete freak because I'm trying to touch everything. But they go around touching other humans like it's all normal. So I don't know.

I'm kind of calling a little bit of hypocrisy on this neurotypical, neurodivergent thing here, because I feel like they call us out for a lot of things, and I don't necessarily feel like that's fair. 

 IVY 

 3:23 

I also think that it is really unfair and hypocritical of them. I know I just called myself out as a hypocrite, but I think it's hypocritical of them as well that. Not only is it acceptable in their minds that you should touch other people, but it is insulting if you don't. The number of business podcasts I've listened to or classes that I've taken where they're like, the first handshake is imperative. It's very important. Which is the stupidest thing in the world to me. 

I'm like, Why should I be expected to touch you to make you feel more comfortable with meeting me? Kind of a dick move. That feels very invasive. What happened to consent?

 AUTUMN 

 4:01 

 That's a good point. What did happen to consent? We're all going to do this just because you all say we should? I don't know. 

Okay, so, like, neurodivergent people, those of us, the autistic, the ADHD-ers, if you want to open that umbrella, the PTSD, the bipolar, the borderline, all of us neurodivergent people, right? We're touted as being weird, illogical, unsensible. Hell, we're fucking diagnosable, right? But if you take a step back and really look at neurotypicals objectively, I feel like it's a little bit like the pot calling the kettle black. 

And like I said, I mean, we're diagnosable, right? The neurotypical world has done an extreme job studying and recording our quirks and foibles to the point that we have diagnoses based on how we just exist or act. So what if we turn the tables today and we focus in on their quirks and their foibles and their eccentricities? 

So that's what today's episode is all about. We're turning the tables and looking really closely at all of these little eccentricities that neurotypicals have and kind of pointing out that, okay, you may be typical, but that's still really kind of fucking weird. 

 IVY 

 5:17 

Now, if for some reason you are neurotypical and you've found your way to our podcast and you're already taking offense, we're going to be joking a lot in this episode. Half joking, half serious. 

We're, just like Autumn said, turning the tables. We catch shit from you guys all the time. So we just want to throw some things at you and kind of challenge your concept of normal, because your normal is very odd to us. 

And we do know that not all neurotypical people act the same. We're not just throwing you all into one giant box and saying you're all fucking weirdos in the exact same way. The truth is, all of you and all of us neurodivergent are fucking weirdos in our own unique, individualistic way. 

Try not to get pissed. See, we're just kind of playing around with these concepts and pointing out that maybe normal doesn't necessarily mean acceptable. We find some of your quirks unacceptable. But in a joking way. Although, please don't touch me. I don't like that. 

 AUTUMN 

 6:20 

 Well, but I feel like at least something worth commenting on because the fact that I am autistic and I want to go touching everything and exploring my environment tactically is weird. But like we already pointed out, how is that any more weird than wanting to hold somebody's hand when you just first met them? It's all kind of weird, right? So let's take a look at some of the things that neurotypicals do that we, as neurodivergents find a little odd. 

And okay, so the very first one I really wanted to start with was eye contact, okay? Because as an autistic, this is like one of the defining characteristics, right? Autistic people are uncomfortable making eye contact, right? And so I don't know if this study is repeated and I have no idea how good it is, because I am hoping they do repeated studies on this and I'm hoping they prove this researcher correct. Because there was a recent study which we will put up on our resources page for the podcast, and it actually found that autistics are not actually distressed when people make eye contact with them. They don't get aroused, they don't get anxious, they don't get stressed. 

What the study found, however, was that neurotypicals experience a higher level of stress when people do not make eye contact with them. So what this means, and what the experimenters extrapolated this to mean was that basically neurotypicals distress when their attempts to make eye contact are not reciprocated, likely make their behavior insistent, which in turn could make autistics uncomfortable. 

And so this is part of the reason I wanted to start out with this. Because, y'all, the neurotypical world is out there going, oh, you autistics don't like making eye contact. That makes you so uncomfortable. But what if that's not the case? What if the reality is you as a neurotypical start freaking the fuck out when I don't look you in the eyes and then you start trying to make severe, intense eye contact with me and start getting stressed and start getting anxious. And then I, as an autistic person, also start getting stressed and start getting anxious because you're being anxious at me. 

And so I really wanted to start this whole thing out because I really feel like this is a table turning thing that research is starting to prove like, hey, you know what, maybe it's not the autistic people that are the freaks here. Maybe we're not the ones with the anxiety issues about eye contact. Maybe it's you neurotypical people 

 IVY 

 8:46 

I have to admit I kind of have fun with that concept of eye contact because I really don't care. It doesn't make any difference to me whether people make eye contact with me or not. I don't feel like I should be expected to make eye contact with them, but I do sometimes enjoy playing around with it. 

So there are times when I will go completely out of my way to not make eye contact. And then there are other times when I will just bore holes into your soul, making eye contact so intense that it will make even neurotypicals uncomfortable. I don't know why I feel compelled to do this, but it amuses me to try. Because I do find the obsession with eye contact and the appropriate forms of eye contact and the rules around it to be pretty silly. Actually. I don't really understand what the big deal is because it is a whole lot of nothing to me either way.

AUTUMN

 9:39 

They are really silly and they also, like many of the neurotypical rules, they don't make sense. Because I am a masker, that's part of what I have done with my autism to try to fit into the world, I mask and eye contact is still one that I struggle with. I'm sure that I look, I don't know, shifty or shady. My eyes are darting all over the place. I've learned to look at people's eyebrows to keep the neurotypicals calm. If I work in customer service, which I'm doing now, I focus a lot on my activities instead of the person, which is probably considered rude, I don't know. But I know eye contact does make me anxious. 

But I kind of wonder is it because the neurotypicals around me have been stressing out and taking their stress out on me? Because I don't understand the unspoken unwritten rules about how long I should make eye contact, for what period of time. I don't know. I kind of wish I was like Ivy here and I could just bore holes into your head sometimes. 

IVY

I understand the rules theoretically. I know what you're supposed to do. I just often choose not to do it in one situation. I will go out of way to avoid eye contact because as soon as you make eye contact with somebody, you've opened up the possibility for conversation. And often I want to shut down that opportunity before you even think that it exists. So I'll completely avoid eye contact and act as though a person does not exist at all because I'm trying to avoid conversation. 

But then, yeah, there are other times where if somebody's being overly persistent in pursuing conversation and I'm not down for it, I will lean in closer and I will look at them very intently the entire time that they're talking. Yeah, I'm sure I look judgmental a lot of times, but that is also intentional if you want to create all these rules around eye contact. I will use your rules to my advantage to get what I want out of the social interaction, even if that means avoiding the social interaction completely. 

 AUTUMN 

 11:40 

 And the thing here too, though, is a lot of neurotypicals don't even realize that there are rules. Because I guess if you are the norm, if you are the typical, you never actually have to stop and examine these things. 

And so let's look at some of the other greeting behaviors that neurotypicals have. Let's go ahead and start with handshakes, which we already talked about, You know,  the thing - and I stole Ivy's line because she actually said this when we were making notes, but it's hilarious and so true – “Why do you want to hold my hand? I just met you.” 

IVY 

12:30

Because, seriously, what is this about? I mean, I won't beat a dead horse too much. I've obviously talked about it already in this episode. I've talked about it in multiple episodes before. I really want somebody, some neurotypical person to explain to me in any sort of way that makes sense, why it is necessary to touch people that you just met. The handshaking is the thing that has always boggled my mind the most. And I know that they say it's so important to do the handshake and to do it firmly, and you're establishing dominance, I guess, or whatever it is that you're trying to get out of it. You're trying to be assertive, dominant, show that you're not backing down. 

I don't care. I have flat out refused to shake hands with people before. Strangers have held out their hand to me and I've just looked at it and then continued talking to them and not extended my hand. Because I'm not going to give in to the pressure to hold your hand. I don't know you and I don't know where your hands have been, and especially with men. I'm just going to say it, I have known too many of you and I know a lot of you don't wash your hands after you pee. I don't want to touch your dick hands. I'm sorry. I just don't. That's not something that I'm into, so I'm not going to do that. 

And I don't care if you think that that makes me seem timid or weak willed. I don't know how you would think that, though, when I look at your hand and then just look back up at your face and continue talking to you as though you never extended your hand. But whatever, if you want to think I'm weak willed, that's fine. I feel much better knowing I have not touched your dick hands. That's how I feel about it. 

 AUTUMN 

 13:47 

 And I know there's a lot of neurotypical people out there will be like, well, we don't have to shake hands. We can bump elbows or bump fists, because that was a big thing that came in with the COVID. We still have to touch each other. And I'm like, do you think I don't exist if you can't feel me? Am I just a figment of your imagination, if you can't actually touch me? Do you have difficult these looping with the other humans unless you establish contact? Which is crazy to me because I constantly feel all of you attempting to loop with me. Like, I feel your little brain neurons coming at me without needing to touch you. I don't know, it boggles my mind. 

 IVY 

 14:25 

It never occurred to me that neurotypicals may be wanting to reach out and touch is a way to reality check. And now this makes me want to fuck with people even more. Now, the next time somebody holds out their hand to shake my hand, what I really want to do is just lean in closely, grab both of their shoulders with my hands, and just look at them and be like, I'm real, I promise. That's what that makes me want to do. Sure, they're probably not reality checking, but the idea that they might be amuses me. They want to scope out and make sure that I am, in fact, real, a part of their reality, not a ghost, not a figment of their imagination. And if that's the case, I really want to validate for them that, yes, I am real. I still don't want to touch your dick hands, but I will grab you by the shoulders and let you know I do exist. I am, in fact, real. 

 AUTUMN 

 15:12 

 That's awesome. I totally want to be there for that. And I feel like if your avoiding eye contact and your refusal to shake hands did not shut down the conversation, you randomly grabbing their shoulders, staring directly into their eyes, and saying, I am real will probably shut down that. 

AUTUMN 

 15:17

God, I hope so. 1s 

AUTUMN 

 15:18 

Okay, so another one. And I guess this is probably more American from what I've heard, but still, a lot of neurotypicals do it. Hi. How are you doing? That is the normal greeting. That is the scripted greeting I have learned to give. And I say this a thousand times a day, because, like I said, I do work customer service now. And so somebody comes in the door, and I'm like, hi, how are you doing today? 

I don't fucking care how you're doing. When you ask me, I know you don't fucking care how I'm doing. Why are we going through the motions of pretending? What is that about? That is ridiculous that this is the greeting. Hello, stranger I have never seen. Please divulge your innermost emotional and physical feelings to me at our first contact. What the hell? Where did this come from? 

 IVY 

 16:13 

 I've always been curious where this comes from too, because, yeah, they don't actually care. And it is very easy to make them extremely uncomfortable by actually giving them the information. If somebody asks me how I'm doing and I'm feeling fuckery that day, I will tell them how I am, in fact, doing. And it generally does not go over very well. 

I also end up asking people how they're doing because it is just wired into us to do that. But I don't enjoy it. Very rarely do I actually ask because I care. And I feel like that is true of neurotypicals too. They don't actually want to know and if you do give more information, they're just going to be very uncomfortable with it or they're going to give some stupid cliche response and then you all move on because that's how that's supposed to go. The social script is you say, I'm fine today, how are you? That's what you're supposed to do.

 AUTUMN 

 17:10 

They don't really care. And I mean, maybe there's a few of them out there that do. Or a lot of them will say they do because I don't know, they need to lie to themselves about it. I'm not sure.

Because this is one that actually took me a while to figure out because again, autistic, I was a little slow with this. And people would say, how are you doing? And I would tell them. And of course this was early in my adulthood where I was coming out of trauma and I was not doing well most of the time. Most of the time I was suicidal and extremely depressed and very negative. And when you actually let people know, even succinctly, because that's what I thought. I thought, well, maybe I was just explaining too much. And so I tried to get all of my suicidal depressive trauma ideology into a sentence to see if that helped by reducing my talking. But that also was not what they were looking for. It mostly just made them really uncomfortable and then I just screwed up the whole script for things and it was awkward. The rest of the whole interaction was just awkward. 

 IVY 

 18:07 

 Well, you make the entire interaction awkward and then what becomes even more awkward is the goodbyes, which is another one of those interesting little social scripts there. Who does goodbyes well, because this is the thing with neurotypicals that confuses me. They have very specific scripts for everything else, but not for goodbyes. 

Goodbyes are always awkward. Nobody knows how to do it, when to do it. Everybody's always afraid, I guess, of being offensive to the other person. I'm not entirely sure. I do laugh every time I see that meme about the Midwestern goodbye. How do you let people know that the conversation is over? You want them to leave your house, do that thing. You slap your legs and you're like, welp, stand up, and that's the sign that you're supposed to go. And having grown up where I did, I saw that all the time. So that is how I thought that it was supposed to go. And then I move out to the West Coast, and people don't respond in the same way to that. 

And I don't know how west Coasters say goodbye. I've been living here for a decade. I don't really understand how they do it because nobody seems to have an answer for it, and it feels very awkward. And it's one of the few things that I actually do feel social pressure about. And I'm not sure why. Because greetings not a big deal. I don't really feel that social pressure. I will play around with those social scripts to make people uncomfortable because it amuses me. 

But the goodbyes legitimately stress me out because I don't know how to end that conversation. And you're not picking up on my Midwestern goodbye. And now this is bothersome, and what I really want to say is, okay, I would like you to leave now, or I am going to leave now. I will see you later. What I really want to do is that but you're not supposed to do that. But I don't know what you're supposed to do instead, because West Coasters don't seem to have a version of saying goodbye that is uniform. They all have, like, a different way of doing it, and it drags out way longer than it needs to. And it's just like a lot of looking at each other and nodding and awkwardly smiling because, you know, you're parting ways now. But nobody knows how to address the actual parting ways. So you just stand there and smile and nod at each other and continue conversation anxiously. 

 AUTUMN 

 20:45

It's kind of like a parody of the stereotypical teenage conversation. You hang up first. No, you hang up first. No, you hang up. 

IVY

 20:50

Maybe that's what I'll do next time I'll try that out. I don't know. Maybe they'll go for that. Maybe. Either that or it will stun them enough that I can make a quick escape. I don't know. 

AUTUMN

 20:55

 Part of me sometimes just wants to carry, like that ninja powder where you just put the smoke bomb down and then run away. But I'm just not graceful enough to actually do that. I'd probably trip over something. I don't know. 

I think one of the more awkward things, too, is when you finally do get the goodbye said. It's great if it's a scripted thing. Like, it's the end of the workday and you're like, okay, well, you have a good weekend then, because everybody knows, like, oh, excellent. We are done talking. We are exiting. But then you see each other again because you're walking down the same hallway or you parked your car next to each other, and then it starts all over because you already said goodbye and it was all awkward and weird. And then you keep walking next to each other and it's like that goodbye can't hold. And you have to avoid eye contact with the other person now or just comment on the fact that you're both wal – eh – its so - 

 IVY 

 21:40 

Once goodbye is said for me, the social pressure is off my shoulders. I don't feel it anymore. I could walk down a quarter mile long hallway right next to you. I could walk all the way out to my car right next to you. I've already said goodbye. I don't need to repeat this. Once I say goodbye, that's it. I don't make eye contact with you. I don't interact with you further. I just go about my business like you don't exist. 

Because now I am on my time. I'm no longer on your time. We said goodbye. If you wanted to wait until we were at our cars, then you should have waited to say goodbye until we were at our cars. This is no longer my responsibility. 

AUTUMN

22:17

I want to be able to do that. I want to be able to be like your awkwardness and uncomfortability is not my issue. Thank you, though, for attempting to make it so. 

IVY

22:27

Where if they try to talk to me further, I will look at them in a very confused way, like a very confused and judgmental way, just to let them know that I am done. I was done back there. It is time to shut down conversation now. I said goodbye. I said goodbye. You said goodbye. This is no longer an issue for me. We are now living in two separate worlds. That is how it works. I don't know, maybe I am kind of a dick, but to me it's just like it's done now. Why should I have to continue this on? 

To me, it's more awkward to start a conversation again. We already said goodbye. I'm in my own world now. You don't exist anymore.

 AUTUMN 

 23:06 

 I don't imagine they would take it very well if you actually said that to them. And you are a little bit harsh. I'm not going to call you a dick. I just feel like you're being very authentic and clear, which is something that neurotypicals, I don't know, are scared of, unable to handle. I'm not exactly sure. 

Okay, so let's extend a little bit past the greetings and the goodbyes and let's just look at some of the general socializing practices that neurotypicals do. And the first one I'm going to start with is the absolute need for small talk and the inability to tolerate silence. So I am probably a little bit maybe neurotypical in this way, but that's kind of because I'm, again masking, and I'm a people pleaser. And I know that you are uncomfortable with silence, and therefore I'm going to make you happy by making sure there's no silence. Which is why I end up getting pressure of speech a lot of times when I'm around people, and I just end up saying shit all the time to fill the void so that you never get uncomfortable. But it is something like left to my own devices when there are no other people around. I'm okay being quiet. 

 IVY 

 24:18 

 I feel like I am like a cat. You call a cat and the cat does not come unless it wants to. I don't initiate small talk unless I am incredibly bored. That is the only time that I initiate small talk. The rest of the time I don't generally engage in small talk unless I deem it absolutely necessary to do so. I do not feel the pressure of speech. Even if I did, it wouldn't matter because I freeze up in social situations and can't think of anything to say anyway. So, yeah, I only try to do small talk when I am really bored. I want your attention when I want your attention, and no other time 

 AUTUMN 

 25:01 

 I end up having to do a lot of small talk because, again, customer service. But this is honestly one of the reasons I don't get into social interactions and I actively avoid them, like, out in the world, is because I don't like small talk and I don't want to participate it. 

And as far as not really thinking of things to say, I will reassure you, Ivy, that it really doesn't matter what the fuck you say, because I have had some garbled sentences come out of my mouth and nobody is actually listening to what you're saying. I'm pretty sure because I'll be like, hey, the rain's pretty dry today on the hill. And they're like, yeah, it sure is. And I'm like, that sentence didn't even make sense. The words that I put together did not make a cohesive thought.

IVY 

 26:00

 I tried to pay attention to what other people do to create small talk. And one of the things that I have discovered is that often it's not connected to anything. It will have nothing to do with anything that they said before. 

Maybe I'm working on a client, for instance. And we were talking for a little bit, and then conversation died down, and, like, ten minutes later it's been silent for ten minutes, and ten minutes later they're like, so I ran out of toilet paper last week, and I had to use paper towels. And that was not a fun experience. And I'm like, okay. Or they're like, yeah, I forgot to winterize my boat, and now it's got a bunch of damage to it. So now I got to call somebody to come and fix the boat, and it's becoming this big hassle. Okay? Or they'll say, yeah, I bought this hot tub, but then the water in the hot tub made my skin really dry, and so now I'm having problems with itchy dry skin. Okay. That last one is the only thing that remotely has anything to do with what's going on. I am putting oil on your skin, which hopefully will make it less dry, but most of the time, it has nothing to do with anything. It just comes completely out of nowhere. 

And I think that's why I struggle with small talk, because it doesn't occur to need to share random facts about my life with anybody, really. If I don't have something that I think is really interesting to say, I generally just don't say it. And I think that's what small talk is. Is it's sharing a lot of uninteresting factoids about your life. I don't know how to do that, because everything that goes on in my day to day life, that's not super exciting, I'm just like, well, why would anybody want to hear about that? 

And yet people tell me things all the time. I'm like, yeah, I don't really care about that. It's interesting that you thought to bring that up, but I don't really care, and I'm not going to tell you something that I don't think you're going to care about. That's why I suck at small talk, because nothing is interesting enough. I am not an entertaining enough person. I am a very boring person, which apparently doesn't stop anybody else from making small talk. They can be really boring, too, and they still make small talk. I have an aversion to it, I think.

 AUTUMN 

 27:48 

It's not just small talk, though. This is actually a trick that they teach you when you're doing counseling, like you're getting your degree and you're going through your internship, is people are uncomfortable with silence. So if you need the client to open up, just be silent, and they will open up. And so that's part of what's happening, Ivy, is you're accidentally counseloring these people by being silent. You keep being silent long enough, and you might come up with whatever their innermost demons are, because they just feel so uncomfortable that they need to give you something. And obviously, since you didn't respond to the boat thing, it's got to be the dry skin, and that wasn't enough. So now let's bring up this next thing and see if that's enough to appease you. 

 IVY 

 28:26 

Everybody else sees me as a cat, too. That's what you're saying? 

 AUTUMN 

 28:31 

 Pretty much, yeah. 

Okay, so let's look at another common socializing practice that the neurotypicals have. And we've talked about this one a little bit in previous episodes, and that is the need to have some sort of substance, some mind-altering substance, when you socially interact, for the most part. So if you're going out to have fun, to have social fun, it's going to include probably alcohol or marijuana or depending on your group, maybe something more. It's very impossible, it seems, for neurotypical people to make genuine, authentic connection without the need for a substance. 

I'm sorry, this one seems downright unhealthy if you cannot authentically connect to another human without need for a drug. That seems kind of problematic to me because when I want to authentically interact with somebody, when I want to make an authentic connection, I'm going to fucking do that. I will put myself out there and do it. Most of the time I don't want to because I have a lot of fucking issues. And honestly, most people don't interest me enough to spend the resources to make an authentic connection. But if I want to do it, I will. I will just be open, authentic, and I'll say what's in my heart or in my mind, and I'll let my emotions be on display because it's all just part of me. 

But it seems like neurotypicals cannot do this. And so when they start going out to socially interact, you've got to grease the wheels a bit. And that one is so crazy to me that this is just considered normal. 

 IVY 

 30:08 

I think that says a lot more about how some of these rules, these social scripts,  stymie us and sabotage us. The fact that there's so many people that require alcohol or some other substance in order to be uninhibited enough to share themselves authentically and genuinely says a lot about how much our culture represses our individualism and tells us to conform and tells us to act in certain ways and follow certain rules. So to me, the fact that pretty much all adult activities include alcohol and that it's just taken for granted that it will include alcohol speaks more of the greater system than it does of the individual people. 

And I feel like a lot of the - and I don't think all neurotypicals do that, but I think some neurotypicals, like, they just genuinely enjoy having a drink and they're extroverted and social and connect regardless of whether they have a substance. So obviously it's not all of them, but I think the ones who need it in order to have those more genuine interactions with other people and to fully open up, I don't necessarily know that they're even aware of why exactly they need it. And that it's a problem with the larger system that says you have to be and act in certain ways all the time to be accepted. 

Which is bullshit. And as neurodivergent people, we know that that's bullshit. But I think since a lot of us have not ever really fit in, you get to a certain point over time that while, yes, you may mask to a certain degree, you also accept that you're a weirdo and you're never going to fully fit in. And so it's easier for us to form those genuine connections without the substance, because we are already on some level ostracized from that larger social system. 

But that is not true of neurotypicals. They are accustomed to fitting in, but fitting in comes at a cost. And a lot of times the cost is genuine connection. And so it's easier for them to form that genuine connection if everybody is drinking. Because when everybody's drinking, there's a certain allowance for not following the social scripts, for not following the rules. If you say something that's not socially acceptable, everybody might whisper a little bit, but at the same time they're like, oh, they're just drunk. It's a scapegoat. 

Alcohol and substances are a scapegoat that allow people to be more genuinely themselves when otherwise they are not allowed to be. That at least that's how I see it. Maybe I'm totally off base. 

 AUTUMN 

 32:45 

 That would actually make a lot of sense. I do agree that it is a bigger societal thing, but that idea of not being able to be authentic because then you wouldn't fit in also, that concept right there sounds absolutely horrifying to me. That you would have to give up so much of yourself to fit in. To have intimate relationships and friendships in which you could not actually be yourself for fear of rejection. 

 IVY 

 33:00

There is a lot of social pressure to drink when everybody else is drinking. I have a friend who she recently decided she wasn't going to drink anymore and a lot of her friendships are just ending, not because she's saying, oh, I'm not drinking, so you're not allowed to drink now. But a lot of her friendship were with people that when they get together, all they do is drink. And so since she's no longer drinking, they don't know what to do with her. And if she goes to these social gatherings where everybody else is drinking, they can't just accept that she's not drinking. 

And that's the thing that makes me think it's about needing to fit in and alcohol being this social lubricant that one takes away some of those inhibitions, but also gives you an excuse for your behavior if your behavior doesn't fit within the social scripts. And so even if everybody else is drinking and having a good time, having one or two or three people at that larger gathering who are not drinking is almost intimidating to them because those people are still following the social scripts, those people are still completely sober. And so those people might be making judgments of me for how I am acting now that I am drinking. And that is unacceptable to me because I need to be validated by everybody around me. And if everybody else is drunk too, then we can validate each other and it's fine if we do crazy shit that doesn't normally fit into the social scripts. 

Again, maybe I'm totally off base and maybe I'm wrong, but based on the things that I see, that's what it seems like to me. Even if you're fine with everybody else drinking, they're not fine with you not drinking. That's the part that seems like a larger systemic issue to me on some level. It also makes me feel a tremendous amount of compassion and empathy for the people that feel the need to drink in order to be authentically themselves. Because it's sad that we live in a culture where the only time it's acceptable to be yourself is when you can use alcohol as an excuse for being you. 

 AUTUMN 

 35:20 

 I think that's pretty accurate. I mean, from my perspective of it anyway. But again, we're neurodivergent and we're looking at the neurotypical world and trying to make assumptions based on what we're seeing, observing and have heard from them. I guess this is very much turning the tables today because usually it's the other way around with all the neurotypicals looking at the neurodivergence, wondering why we do the weird things we do. But I would say that what you're saying seems accurate to me anyways. 

And I would say part of the thing that underlies that is another one of these weird neurotypical things that comes up with socializing, which is for whatever reason, and maybe this is just a U.S. thing, but it seems to be broader than that, neurotypicals are not allowed to directly communicate anything ever. 

Everything has to have layers and subcontext and we have to talk about it sideways and around it. You were talking about the goodbyes where we're just not allowed to say okay, this conversation is over. I am leaving now. That would be considered rude. There's nothing specifically rude about that. I am at the end of my ability to handle any more social interaction. I am going to care for myself and by doing so, I am not going to cause you additional stress because I am additionally stressed. What's rude about that? Nothing. But we're not allowed to say that we're not allowed to directly communicate.

And everything ends up having subcontext even if they have to make it up. Because this is something I see on TikTok all the time that autistics get so tired of because most of us do directly communicate because we do not understand the subcontext y'all have. And so what we say is exactly what we mean. Yet when y'all hear it, you add in these layers of subcontext and other meanings that were not there. When I say I am socially exhausted, I need to go home now, this conversation is over. Apparently they're hearing I don't like you, you have made me tired. Something is wrong with you and so I am leaving this situation. Those are not the words I used, but they're not listening to the words. They're creating a subcontext. 

 IVY 

 37:37 

I find it frustrating because it's one of these areas where neurotypical culture turns it around on us and says that we're the ones that have the problem. Because I have found, myself included, that neurodivergent people over explain things and we catch a lot of shit from neurotypicals for over explaining things. But we do it well, at least I do it for much the reason that Autumn is talking about here. Because I feel like if I just directly communicate to you in simple terms what I'm trying to say, you will misinterpret it as something entirely different. And so I feel compelled to over explain things so that I can make sure that we are perfectly clear and on the same page. But then a lot of times those neurotypicals, it's like they almost just stop listening at some point and they're just like, you're over explaining things. This has become way too complicated now.

And I'm like, well, I don't know how to make it not complicated because I don't understand the subtext and the reading in between the lines that's expected of me here. Partially because I grew up in a household of neurodivergent people and I was mostly raised by Autumn and Grandma who are autistic. So I don't get the reading between the lines a lot of times in conversation. And so I do over explain a lot. I'm over explaining right now. 

And I'm sure there's going to be neurotypicals that listen to this. You're like, oh my God, you're over explaining it. Why are you making it so complicated? Well, I'm making it so fucking complicated because in my mind you guys are the ones who are complicating things. Because if I don't go above and beyond to explain what I mean and all of the logic that I have behind it, and the emotion that I have behind it. If I don't explain all of that, you're going to interpret it a certain way. 

But then half the time, even when I do over explain, either they stop listening at some point, and they write me off and dismiss me because I overexplained, or now they've taken my over explanation and they've picked it apart, and now they're creating subtext within that, which makes it even more complicated. So I feel like this is one of those things where it's like, neurotypicals and neurodivergents almost speak an entirely different language, and we get really frustrated with each other because I don't fucking understand your language. It sounds similar to mine, but it's obviously not the same because we're interpreting each other in very different ways, even though we used the same words. 

 AUTUMN 

 39:58 

 From my perspective and from what I've seen and studied, it seems like neurotypicals rely a lot more on the subcontext to get the information. And so when you explain a lot, they're not listening to your words at all. They're just sitting there creating emotional narratives based on the other neurotypical interactions they've had. And this is part of why I think, at least in the corporate world, back when I worked there, it leads to a super over reliance on spoken and face to face communication. 

Even when we went COVID and everybody went home, we had to have all these Zoom meetings and Skype meetings and all of this because they are super reliant on having this actual face to face interaction. And I know there's all this stuff about, oh, this meeting could have been an email. I'm sorry, I've been the person that sent the email. And one, nobody fucking read it because neurotypicals don't read. And two, it didn't matter because you did not actually understand the words, because there wasn't all this subcontext with it. 

You're not listening to what I'm saying. You're listening to what you think I am emoting and what I am hiding in the words. 

And it is crazy to me that that does mean that so many neurotypicals do not read. Yeah, they don't read emails, and it's not even if they're too long, because I learned to condense everything into, like, two sentences to get my information in there so I didn't have to have a long attention span, and they wouldn't read them. 

But this would even go to the point where one of my first jobs, I worked at a restaurant that served pie. Our menu was really big. There was, like, ten things on it. Three of the things were apple pie, like American apple pie, Dutch apple pie, and some other kind of apple pie, right? Almost everybody would come in there. They would look at the menu for, like, two minutes, just staring at it. Then they would look at me and be like, do y'all have any apple pie here? And I'm like, yes. That is why it says apple pie three times on the menu. I would get so frustrated with this, but I've come to believe that this is that neurotypicals I don't know almost cannot use words like the actual literal word is not enough for them to get the information they need. 

 IVY 

 42:09 

 In defense of neurotypicals, when I go to coffee shops, since I can't have dairy, I go to coffee shops. I got to use an alternative turned this milk. Nine out of ten times. I'm staring at the menu for a really long time, and I cannot for the life of me see where they've listed, what types of alternative milks they have until after I have asked the cashier and then after I have asked them. Suddenly the alternative milks magically appear on the menu, and now I can find them.

And I feel like a dumb shit every fucking time, but at the same time, I don't want to hold up the line because I'm staring at the menu, unable to see where the alternative milks are. So I don't know. I don't know what's going on with Neurotypicals. I don't know if they're just refusing to read. I don't know if they're just staring off into space, or maybe they're having the same issue that I am, where the thing that they're looking for doesn't appear on the menu until after they have asked about it, and then it magically appears, and then they feel like idiots afterward. 

So I'm going to speak up in defense of neurotypicals on this one, because sometimes I am actually convinced that it is magic that it is not there on the menu until you have asked the cashier. And by asking the cashier now, it has manifested onto the menu, you have created reality by asking. I may just be blind and oblivious and dumb. I don't know. And I don't know what's going on with Neurotypicals, but they're not the only ones that do that, because I do that in every fucking coffee shop that I go into, and it's super embarrassing because I can never fucking find it until after I ask. 

 AUTUMN 

 43:52 

 As long as you're super embarrassed and feel like an idiot, I'll forgive you. That was my thing. As long as you felt like an idiot for asking me that after. And I kind of get it with the alternative milks, because usually the coffee place menus, there's a ton of shit going on. But we literally had, like, ten things. So there are ten lines on our menu. Three of those lines say apple pie. And so if you were not finding that, I don't know, maybe if you were sensorially overwhelmed. Maybe if you came in and there was so much going on, you were sensorially overwhelmed. 

 IVY 

 44:32 

It doesn't follow the logic exactly, but another thing that is a normal social script is you go into a place and if you have to use the bathroom, you ask if they have a bathroom. And I'm not talking about, like, a public bathroom. You don't go in there and say, hey, do you have a bathroom that the public can use? You go  to somebody's house to visit them and you're like, hey, do you have a bathroom? 

Well, obviously they have a bathroom. And you're not asking, Can I use your bathroom? You literally asked them, do you have a bathroom? And this is a normal social script. And it's one that I do too. I go into a place and I'm like, hey, do you have a bathroom? Obviously they must have one. 

It would make more sense to ask, May I use your bathroom? But no one ever does. They asked, do you have one? It doesn't fit the logic exactly, but I wonder if something similar is going on with the apple pie. Like they're looking at the menu and they're like, I see that there's apple pie up there. And what I should ask is, Can I have some apple pie? But instead I'm going to ask, do you have some apple pie? To let you know that apple pie is what I want without directly asking for the apple pie. 

That's the only other thing that I could possibly think of that's going on, potentially. Obviously you had apple pie. It was on the menu. Obviously you have a bathroom because all humans have to urinate and defecate at some point. But we ask, do you have it? Not, may I use it or may I have some?

 AUTUMN 

 45:52 

That would actually make a lot of sense. Which also would explain why some of them looked at me like I was the idiot. Because apparently they were providing the correct social script line. And I was like, you're a fucking idiot. 

Which I feel like goes right into the next point, which is because of this indirect communication. Part of that is they are polite and courteous even when it complicates things or makes it inefficient. And that's part of it. Like, you can't just request to use the bathroom. I need to use the bathroom. I will be using your bathroom now. Can I use your bathroom? Apparently that is too demanding. And so now we have to get even more indirect and just talk about the philosophical existence of a bathroom so that we can continue to be polite and courteous. 

Which as an autistic person that likes direct communication, this kills me. I don't want to be polite and courteous. I just want to know what the fuck you want. That's it. That's it. Just tell me what you want. Like, if you came in and be like, give me some apple pie, bitch. I'd been like, fine, you don't need to be like calling me a bitch. But sure, here's some pie. 

 IVY 

 46:53 

And like I said, I do it too. I go into a place and ask, do you have a bathroom? Because I've learned that that is the social script. Because I guess it is a polite is saying as a courtesy thing, you're not just going in and assuming you're going to be able to use their bathroom. You go in and ask if they have one, which then the expected response is that they will offer you the use of their bathroom. They're being altruistic in allowing you to pee in their toilet. 

So, I don't really understand why that unnecessary step has to be there. I don't know why it's considered rude to ask if you can use their bathroom, but it's fine to question the existence of their bathroom to allow them space to kindly offer you the use of their bathroom. But it is a thing that is natural in neurotypical social scripts that don't entirely understand.

 I also don't understand the ways in which it extends outside of conversation. Like the people that will stand there and hold the door for you. You're a quarter mile down the way in the parking lot and now you have to run because they were kindly holding the door for you. And it's like, I get that you're trying to be nice, but dude, I am really far away and now I have to hustle to get through the door because you decided you wanted to be courteous and hold it for me. And now this has become more awkward for everybody involved. That was unnecessary. 

It's the same way in traffic. The whole thing with traffic is you're not supposed to impede traffic, but you've always got that one asshole in traffic that decides they're going to let everybody and their grandmother leave the parking lot. And now a bunch of people have missed the light. But if we had just all been allowed to go through the light, the people that were coming out of the parking lot could have just exited right behind all of us when traffic cleared. But you've always got that one asshole who's like, but I got to be nice. I'm doing the nice thing. I'm being the good person. 

I don't understand those things either, because it's not just conversation. Neurotypicals carry that shit into every single part of their life, and it drives me absolutely crazy. You have now overcomplicated something and made it awkward when it didn't need to be at all.

 AUTUMN 

 49:12 

 Yeah, that happens a lot at four way stops, too, where it's like, no, you go. No, you go. There's actually legal laws about who gets to go first, how bout we just follow those and then things will proceed efficiently? That's why we have a law. 

All of this, though, going back a little bit to the actual talking about things, I was listening to NPR, and I guess there's this whole subset of neurotypicals that can't even directly ask for things even politely because it's considered rude. I've heard this is a big thing in the South. I don't know. I've not been down there. But, like, for example, if you were both living together and there was some cereal up on the shelf that you couldn't reach, I would just be like, hey, babe, hand me the box of cornflakes. But apparently there are some people that can't even say that. They will have to say things like, gosh, I'd really like some cornflakes, so that the other person understands that and then can give them the cornflakes. Which to me just seems really passive aggressive for some reason. Like, if there are cornflakes there and you're all like, gosh, I'd really like some, I kind of think something's wrong with you. 

 IVY 

 50:17 

 Maybe in those situations if I ask you to get it for me. Now I'm imposing upon you. But if you say, I would really like to have some cornflakes, now they can feel as though they're being altruistic and they're saving you from your cornflakeless life. Maybe that's what it's about. It's about propping them up to feel like a hero because they got you cornflakes off the shelf. 

But if you ask them directly to do it, well, now you're imposing upon me. I don't want to get your cornflakes. I was watching TV. I don't want to get your cornflakes. But if you just say, I'd really like to have some cornflakes, they're like, I will rush in, and I will be your hero, and I will grab you those cornflakes from that impossibly high shelf, my sweet princess. I don't know. Neurotypicals are just fucking weird.

 AUTUMN 

 51:01 

Oh, my God, neurotypicals are so weird. Okay, so last thing on this direct communication, and this one slays me, and it slays so many autistic people, and that is that they create rules, and then do not follow them, okay? 

Because they don't use direct communication, when direct communication exists, as in the case of a rule or a regulation or a law, they still don't treat it as such. They still think that there's exceptions or ways around it. Or somebody on TikTok said, it's a vibe. And this blows my fucking mind. Like, a rule is a rule. And so if you create a rule that says, for whatever reason I am not allowed to step on the grass, that doesn't mean I'm not typically allowed to step on the grass. But if I'm in a hurry, I can. Or if it's a Tuesday, I guess I can. Or because I want to have a picnic, I can. No, the rule is do not step on the grass. Which I interpret as meaning do not step on the grass. End. 

Because that is the rule. It is clear and direct. But then I explain this to people because they are on the grass and they look at me like I am a fucking idiot because I am following the rule. Because apparently rules aren't rules. Laws aren't laws. Regulations aren't regulations. Because even when it comes to something that should be direct communication, it's still not direct communication. 

 IVY 

 52:40

My observation is that it's not really about the rule not being the rule. It's about the individual always seeing themselves as the exception to the rule. Because I see that a lot in neurotypicals. It's like, yeah, rule exists, but I am the exception. Why? I don't know, but I am the exception. Or I don't agree with that rule, that rule is stupid, so I'm not going to follow that rule. It doesn't apply to me because I don't like it. I am the exception because I do not like this rule or I do not like this rule at this particular time, and so it's okay for me to break it because I am the exception and I am the only exception. 

That's kind of like the vibe that I have gotten from a lot of neurotypicals. It's not that the rules don't exist. It's that the rule doesn't apply to me unless I agree that the rule applies to me. And so if I'm breaking the rule and somebody calls me out on breaking the rule, well, you're the asshole now because obviously I am the exception to the rule. And why do you not recognize me as being the exception to the rule? Are you fucking blind or just stupid? That's what I've noticed. 

And I don't know if that's, like a embarrassment thing. Like they get called out on breaking the rule, and now they feel ashamed or they feel guilty about it. And so their way of dealing with it is to double down by being a jerk about it and being like, whatever, a rule is stupid. I don't have to follow that rule. You can't make me. I don't know if that's what it is or what, but I've noticed that a lot. So I don't think it's that the rules don't exist. I think it's that they always see themselves as the exception to said rule.

 AUTUMN 

 54:04 

 Okay. So I'm going to say a word here that's probably going to piss off a lot of, if there are any listening, neurotypicals. And that word is privilege. That's what that word is. That is entitlement and privilege right there. Because I'm sorry, if you are neurodivergent or if you are not the accepted majority, you don't get exceptions. I don't get exceptions for my autism. “It's not a real thing that's actually going to affect me.” And hell, even if I have an “actual” disability, a lot of times there's not even exceptions for it. So even the concept that you consider yourself to be the exception, oh, my God, the privilege that is wrapped up in that to think that you deserve and warrant an exception and that you're going to get it. Because I would love to have a lot of exceptions. 

 IVY 

 54:55 

Personally, in defensive neurotypical, sometimes I kind of get it because there are rules that are stupid and don't make sense and it's less of a hassle to just find a workaround and to half ass follow the rule than it is to raise a fuss about it. So I kind of get it. I'm going to give them some allowance. 

 AUTUMN 

 55:16 

 I agree with that. But at the same point, you are acknowledging you're breaking the rule. And I think that's where it comes in. Like when I break rules, I am clearly in my head and out to other people, I am not following this. This is a rule I will not be following. 

So another one of the socializing practices that neurotypicals have, and I guess maybe it's more like a socializing philosophy maybe,  is what Ivy coined the term as peer pressure altruism. And so this is the idea that we have to care about everybody. Like all humans are equally important to us. 

And this is a very, very weird concept to me because you see this all the time. Like there's some huge earthquake that happens in some different country or this giant bus of something that went off a cliff and all these people died. And everybody around me, all the neurotypicals like, oh my God, that's so horrible. It's so tragic. And they are acting as though they really care about all of these humans and the suffering that happened to them, which doesn't really make sense to me. 

Because, one, how can you honestly care that much? Because when I care for somebody, like I fucking care for somebody, I am invested in them. I will give you my kidney. I will kill people for you. I care about you. And so I do not have the capacity to care about however many billion people are in the world. I'm not going to kill somebody for every person out there. That's just not how I work. 

And then the other piece that doesn't make sense to this for me either is but they don't care a lot of the time. Because we as America are causing a lot of war and death and destruction because we're taking certain resources, because we are richer and wealthier and can do that. And part of what that means is that other people are suffering. Even within our own country, if we are making a lot of money, there are tons of people below us that are working just as hard, that are just as deserving, that are starving and dying in the streets. But we don't seem to care about them. And so I really get confused when we care about all of these tragedies, but at the same time, we don't care about the homeless person on the street down the road. That doesn't even make sense to me. 

So I don't know if they're just, like, pretending to care or if maybe there are certain people we should care about. And so I can care about them because it's socially acceptable?

 IVY 

 57:49 

 But most people, when they say that they care or they're virtue signaling or they're sending prayers and positive thoughts and shit like that, a lot of times when they raise a big fuss about how much they care, to me it comes across as looking for validation that you are a good person. It does not come across to me as you actually caring. 

Because, I'm sorry, I don't think most humans have the capacity to care that much about every other single person on the planet, especially if you don't agree with how that person lives. Because we say that we care about everybody, but we don't care about people that disagree with us. Not really. We may claim that we do, but we're still okay with taking away their rights, for instance. And we say it's because we care about them, and they just don't know any better. They can't make decisions for themselves, so we have to make those decisions for them. I'm doing it out of the kindness of my heart 

Or it's when a big tragedy does happen. Oh, this is so tragic. It's so horrible. I'm letting you know that I think that this is horrible, but I won't do anything else about it. I'm just sending my prayers and positive thoughts. Which I'm not saying that prayers and positive thoughts aren't a great things. I'm just saying that the amount to which most people claim that they care about humanity does not match up with the way that they actually act in their everyday life. 

And I'm not saying that they're lying. I think they genuinely do believe that they care about everybody. But I think when something comes up that challenges that, they just kind of ignore it. It's like, yeah, I care about everybody, but I don't like the way that that person lives. So either, one, I'm going to pretend that person no longer exists, or I'm going to say that my way of interacting with them harshly is just a sign of how much I care. 

It's like these weird mental gymnastics that humans do, because we're told that we're supposed to care about everybody, that all human life is precious, and that we're supposed to see all people as equally valuable, and we're supposed to be 100% altruistic all the time. That's not reasonable.

But there's a lot of pressure to say certain things and to have this attitude that all humans are super important. But we don't actually live that way. And that's the part about it that bothers me. I will openly admit, like, Autumn, I don't have the capacity to care that much about everybody else, even if I wanted to. There is so much pain and suffering in the world. I don't have the capacity. Even if I gave up every single moment of my life to altruistic causes. One, I don't find that to be healthy. And two, it still, yes, you would make an impact, but you cannot, as one person, save the world. That is a very difficult path to choose if you are going to give up everything of yourself to these higher causes. 

It's not realistic to say that you just love everybody and you care about everything that happens to every single person. Even if you care, you are only capable of caring so much and that care only goes so far. You can send thoughts and prayers all you want to and that's not a bad thing. It's a good thing to let people know that we're thinking about you and you are important and you are valued in this world. But at the same time, a lot of times, those people that are in those bad situations, they need money or they need other resources. And you don't have money and resources to give to every single fucking person that is struggling. But we act as though we are, I don't know, on this pedestal of altruism. 

And it comes across to me as disingenuous a lot of times because it's just not realistic. It's not possible. I'm sorry. Maybe prove me wrong. Maybe I am totally off base. Maybe I'm just a selfish, fucked up person. I just don't think it's realistic to actually care that much about every single person. And it doesn't match up with how we actually live. 

 AUTUMN 

 61:57 

I think that's the biggest thing to me is that it doesn't match up with how we live. Like we say we care. But maybe I'm interpreting the word care and concern and love differently. Because to me, care and concern and love is a behavioral feeling. If I love you, then I am making sure you get food. I am making sure you have money. I am making sure that you are taken care of. I am giving my resources to you so that this can happen. Even to the point that it may harm me to some degree. That's what care and concern and love equates to me because it's a behavioral thing. 

And so when you just say it but you don't have the behavior behind it, it to put the autistic word on it, that's what I call lying. You're lying because if you say one thing but you do another, that's a lie. Again, that's some black and white rigid thinking there for you. But seriously, it kind of is. 

I think part of this also ties into this next concept that goes along with these neurotypical socializing practices, which is that obligatory lens for relationships. I feel like a lot of neurotypicals feel obligated, which Ivy kind of spoke of, to care about everybody, but I think they also feel obligated to care about certain people in their lives. And I think maybe this is part of the reason we say but don't do, because we feel obligated to have some sort of intimate or familial or caring connection that we don't actually want. 

And, I'm sorry, if I'm stuck in a relationship I don't really want, I'm probably not going to invest that much in it. But being me, being authentic, if I'm stuck in a relationship I don't want, I'm probably going to end that relationship. And I'm going to say, I don't want to be in this relationship because I'm not getting anything out of it and it may be actively harming me. And I have to carefully guard my resources because I only have so many. 

But that doesn't seem to be the way of neurotypicals. I mean, I feel like neurotypicals is really where we get the phrase like, oh, but they're family. I feel like that's very much a neurotypical concept that because you are blood related or because you lived in the same household that you somehow are required and obligated to continue participating in this specific relationship. 

 IVY 

 64:10 

 I don't see the point in doing obligatory relationships. So if that makes me selfish that I'm extricating myself from those relationships, I guess, so be it. But I don't see any benefit in staying in them. 

The family thing is the one that really has always bothered me, and it's the one that I've gotten the most flack for over the years. Maybe it's because we grew up in the heartland, where family is a big thing because it's the Bible Belt. And then we also grew up Mormon, which puts a lot of emphasis on family. And so when I cut off contact with huge portions of my family, I caught a lot of shit for that because it's like, but they're family. You're supposed to love your family. And I know they can be difficult, but you still got to love your family because they're family. 

And that never made any sense to me because I'm like, yeah, but my family is full of assholes and crazy people that are toxic to be around. This is not good for them or for me. These are weird codependent relationships that aren't actually serving anybody at all. It's worse for all of us if I stay in contact with them. It seems to be something that a lot of neurotypicals can't wrap their head around, because the idea of being in relationships for obligatory purposes is something that's very normal to them. 

Like, even something more superficial, like a workplace environment that pressure to go out and have happy hour with your coworkers to team build. I'm not going to fucking do that. Even when I've liked some of the people that I work with, I'm not going to go out with the whole group of them. I tried it a couple of times, and I was like, this sucks. I don't enjoy this, so I'm not going to do it. But that is something that is considered to be a very normalized thing. You work with these people. You see them every day. You're supposed to care about them. You're one big team. And I don't view things that way. 

So I have always really struggled with this idea of obligatory relationships because I'm like, there's no point because I may work with these people every day, but at the end of the day, I fucking go home. And you know what? I don't think about these people. Or the example that I used in my family. I could stay in contact with them. But my father is an abusive asshole. Why would I want to? 

Or when I had cut off contact with my mom I cut off contact with my mom because I didn't want to end up in a codependent relationship with her. I didn't want her to become dependent on me when I was 15. One, that's not healthy for me. It's not fair to me. But it also wasn't going to be helpful for her to be able to depend on her teenage daughter for absolutely everything. No, thank you. I'd watched Autumn go through that with Mom. I wasn't about to do that. I didn't see any benefit there for anybody. 

The idea of having these obligatory relationships makes no fucking sense to me because often it contradicts all sense and reason. It doesn't make any sense. And a lot of times those obligatory relationships end up being toxic or destructive too, or just pointless. 

Like, why would I go out to happy hour with all the people that I work with when I could come home and spend that time with Kelvin? Somebody that I genuinely, really want to be around, who is a much bigger and more important part of my life, who will be there for longer and who cares about me more. Why would I waste my time team building with people that I see at my job when I could spend that time with people I actually give a fuck about? 

 AUTUMN 

 67:28 

 So a lot of the things that we've been talking about that neurotypicals do the viewing relationships through obligatory lens and the weird greetings and the socializing practices, I feel like they do a lot of this in part because they seem to have a lot of dependence on social groups and norms. So even though they don't necessarily want to do it, they still feel like they have to do it. I mean, it even goes to the point that they seem like they rely on others to establish their worth. Like if they are worth anything or not. They have to look out at culture or at their friends or at their family and get that external validation so that they can feel like they're of worth. 

I sometimes wonder if that's why so many neurotypicals seem to be obsessed with image and name brand. I've got the newest Apple phone, watch, refrigerator or whatever it is they make now, or the Lexus or whatever brand names are. Like, I am so disconnected from brand names I can't even come up with any right now. But I do wonder if that's why some of the neurotypicals are so obsessed with these and their image, that picket fence and that perfectly cut lawn is because they do require so much validation from the other humans to even feel like they're of worth. 

 IVY 

 69:07 

 I don't know. I am reluctant to make those assumptions, but I could also see how potentially that might happen. What I also think happens, based on just my experience with the neurotypical people that I have known, is that I feel like more so than neurodivergent people. Neurotypicals drink the Kool-Aid that society gives them. 

They are more accustomed to fitting in and they're more accustomed to following these social scripts and these social rules and finding that it works for them. They haven't had much of anything that challenges their viewpoints on why it's important to do these things. Honestly, the culture that we live in, the society that we live in, it does promote these things as the path to happiness. 

So you are supposed to get a high paying job because a high paying job equals happiness because that high paying job allows you to have lots of stuff, to have a big house, to have the designer clothes, to have all of these things that show off how much money that you have. And when you can show off how much money that you have, then other people will be drawn to you. You'll find a partner, you'll have a family, your kids will be well set up for success. The continuation on this theme. And I feel like a lot of Neurotypicals, they drink that Kool-Aid more. 

And I think a lot of them ultimately end up being disappointed when they follow the script, when they do all the things that they're supposed to do, and yet they're still not as happy as they expected to be. 

I don't think that's entirely something that is linked to just Neurotypical people to a certain degree. We all want acceptance and validation, and we all have different ways of going about getting it. I think the way that Neurodivergent people go about getting it is going to look different because we don't fit. But I think that because Neurotypicals have fit in and things have gone relatively smoothly for them up to a point. And society says if you have these things, you will be happy. They believe that if they have these things and they do these things, that they will be happy. 

And so they're always doing this stuff in pursuit of happiness, which for most of us, happiness is something that we get to grasp here and there. But a lot of times it is a carrot at the end of the stick. Very rarely do we get to bite that carrot and hold on for very long. It's something that continues to be elusive. And to a certain degree, society wants it to be elusive because they want you to buy more things. They want you to go pay for school, they want you to buy big houses. They want you to continue on these ideals to the next generation. So I think that some of it is intentional on the part of society. 

But I think neurotypical people, they fall into this more because they think that this is the path to success. And this path to success is also the path to happiness. And so they just keep doing these same things because they're told eventually this will lead to happiness. And I think they're more likely to believe that than Neurodivergent people. Because as Neurodivergent people, it's been really hard for us to gain success in those traditional pathways because we don't operate that way. It doesn't work for us. And so a lot of us just kind of give up on those ideals, and we give up on those paths towards happiness because it's not relatable for us. So we stop drinking the Kool-Aid. But I don't know that neurotypicals do, or at least not until much later in life.

 AUTUMN 

 72:19 

That would actually make a lot of sense. And that would be why, I guess, that in part, neurotypicals seem to base worth a lot on how much you contribute to society and how much you give back to the world and follow the societal path. Because I think for a lot of us Neurodivergent people, the societal path is really illogical and unfucking healthy if you really look at it. And so we kind of are like, nope on that. And like you said, a lot of us, even if we do follow that path, well, half of us can't follow that fucking path because it's just impossible for us, given our neurodivergent quirks and symptoms and traits. But even when we do, we just don't get the rewards that are there. So I could see that. 

But I've even noticed, though, that with Neurotypical people yeah, I do think they drink the Kool-Aid more, but they seem to get really offended when you don't care about them, which makes me think that they really need validation. Because yes, if you, Ivy, all of a sudden seem to not care about me, I'd probably get offended or upset or worried or have an emotional reaction because, well, we have a really close relationship and all of this stuff, so it would be kind of weird. But I see a lot of Neurotypical people that get offended when complete strangers don't care about them. 

If you were to come in where I work and you were telling me about the fact that your dog died or your car broke down, if I were to honestly tell you, yeah, I don't really care, I don't know you, that's not important to me, they would be personally offended by that. It even goes into what you've talked about in previous episodes, about when you don't introduce whoever you're with to that person, they seem to get upset because you're not acknowledging them. You're not seeing them as worthy enough to greet and meet your new person. So I still think, though, that they have some, like, I don't know - this worth tied up in, not just other people so much, but in just everybody. Like, every stranger needs to care about them. 

 IVY 

 74:10 

I would suspect that a lot of times, not every time, I imagine there are Neurotypical people who are introverted for whatever reason, but I do feel like a lot of times Neurotypical people, they interact more with other people. They have more investment in social interaction for a wide variety of reasons. And so it's not super surprising to me that they would be more personally insulted and offended and hurt if they did not feel like they were cared about or validated or acknowledged by every person that they meet. 

One of the other things that I have also noticed and I don't know, maybe this is something that is also common in neurodivergence as well, maybe this is just a human thing. But one of the things that I have also noticed is that it's not just that they are hurt or offended when you don't acknowledge them. I have also found that a lot of the Neurotypical people that I have known are much more invested in making you agree with their version of reality. 

And again, maybe not necessarily just Neurotypicals. Maybe Neurodivergent people do this, and I just happen to notice it more in Neurotypical people. But I feel like the Neurotypical people I have known are much more invested in this idea of there is one reality and one way of viewing things. And there's a system, there's a process. There are rules. These are the things you're supposed to value. This is how everybody is supposed to view things, because this is truth. This is what's real.  And if you don't agree with that, that's also something that they take personal offense to. 

Like they don't deal well with cognitive dissonance or being challenged on their views of life and reality and just being challenged on their value systems and belief systems as well. Which I've not found as prevalent among neurodivergent people. And again, I think it's because neurodivergent people experience a greater level of social isolation earlier on. They experience a greater level of not just isolation but also ostracization from other people. And they recognize from very early on that they don't fit in with everybody and they don't fit in with the value systems or the reality that everybody is living in. And because we always tend to end up on the outside of things and most of us do from a very early age, it is easier for us. 

I think, again, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that it is easier for neurodivergent people to live and let live than it is for neurotypical people to live and let live. So it's not just an investment in you need to acknowledge me that I exist, that I am real, that I am valuable. But also you need to agree with my version of reality because if not everybody's on the same page as far as reality looks like, now my reality is challenged and therefore could shatter. And I don't want to deal with that. 

And I don't see that particular type of rigidity as often in neurodivergent people. And I think it's because our version of reality has always been different and it has always been challenged because our version of reality isn't normal. But I think if your version of reality and the way you live your life and your value systems and what you believe in has always been normal, it's very threatening to have that challenged in any way by somebody disagreeing with you or not acknowledging your value as a person and not acknowledging your existence as being important. I could be wrong. That's just my personal take on it.

 AUTUMN 

 77:43

I mean, to me, that underlies the excessive, what I would consider excessive, dependence on social groups and norms that they're even relying on these external sources, the scripts, other people's behaviors, society to dictate their beliefs to the point that they need to convert people to their way of thinking. That they have to be defensive of it. As a neurodivergent person, I think part of it just comes from the fact that we are forced to acknowledge very soon, very young often, that reality isn't reality because the neurotypical script what's normal, what's healthy, what's average, this is what we're told, well, this is reality. But that's not the reality we experience. 

And so we've automatically encountered what they think is reality and we know this is a lie. And so we don't have as much need for the external. We have to go internal and kind of create our own structure and create our own belief system that's going to match up with the reality that we experience. And I guess, I don't know, maybe it's just that point of like when you're cis or when you're heterosexual you never really have to question your identity. Maybe when you're neurotypical you never really have to question your beliefs. You never have to really question reality because what everybody tells you reality is, is what it is. And that means when you become an adult and you're older and it's harder for you to adapt and change to things because your brain is more set they're just not able to handle those kind of challenges anymore. Like that cognitive dissonance, like you say. 

 IVY 

 79:16

To me, what it brings to mind is there's this author, he mostly writes kind of these stories that merge fantasy with modern life and they're kind of grungy and dirty, these under layers of humanity emerging with these fantasy themes. But one of the things that he mentions is this idea of consensual reality. And I feel like a lot of times that's what's going on with neurotypical people, at least the ones that I've interacted with primarily, is they operate on this basis of consensual reality. If everybody else is saying that this is what is real and this is what exists and that stuff doesn't exist and this is how we do things and this is what we believe.

I feel like a lot of neurotypical people, if that has not backfired on them before. They are, for the most part just going to go along with that because it's what's worked for them. But those of us who are Neurodivergent we often have not really existed as much in that consensual reality. We are more like the characters in Charles de Lint’s books that are kind of these fantasy characters almost. We exist within that reality that neurotypical people exist within, but we're seeing it from a completely different angle, from a completely different side. We're seeing fairies. We're seeing shapeshifters. We're seeing the dark underground of things. 

And I feel like a lot of Neurotypical people don't see those things because they've been told that this way of thinking, this way of being, this way of living is not only the right way, but it is the only way. It's very difficult to get somebody who is not naturally a medium, we'll say (not everybody believes in mediums) but it would be very difficult to get somebody who's not naturally a medium to see or hear ghosts. 

And I feel like a lot of times that's kind of where some of the communication issues happen between Neurotypical and Neurodivergent people and where some of the clashes happen is because neurodivergent people, we see all of these other layers. Our version of reality is much more fluid and there's a lot more, I guess, understanding that there can't possibly just be one right way. Because we've seen that with our own eyes again and again and again because we don't fit with the one right way. And so if we don't fit with the one right way, then obviously there are others who don't fit with the one right way. But for a lot of neurotypical people, because it's always worked for them, they struggle to consider anything outside of that.

 AUTUMN 

 81:52 

 That might also explain why they're so willing to look to other humans around them to dictate their own actions, because that hasn't led them astray thus far. This is almost, in my mind an undisputable point because, I mean, there's an entire psychological concept called social proof that talks about this. Like when other humans are unsure, they look at the humans around them to see how they're acting, even if it makes no sense. 

There's even been experiments like this, such as Ash's line experiments, where there'll be three lines and one of these lines is obviously way shorter than the other two lines. But if you get two of the people to say, oh no, that's the longest one, more often than not the neurotypical in that study is going to say the short line is the longest one. 

And there's been other experiments such as the elevator experiment. When you get into an elevator, you look at the doorway so that you can see what's coming in, you're aware of your floor. But if you put a bunch of people in the elevator and you have them face the back when the new unsuspecting neurotypical gets on the elevator, more often than not they're not going to face the front, they're going to face the back. 

And this even goes into potential crisis situations. I don't know how to pronounce it. I think it's Latane and Darley, they did the smoky room experiment, so they had a bunch of actors that were trained to not get aroused or scared when smoke started flooding into the room. And then they got one person they were experimenting on that was filling out the paperwork in the room and they would start leaking smoke into the room. Obviously, you would think, oh my God, we're all going to get freaked out, the building's on fire, there's smoke, I'm coughing, I can't breathe, I'm going to say something. Not so. A lot of neurotypicals, when this would happen, they'd look at the other people around the room. The other people around the room weren't making a big to do about the fact that they couldn't breathe and the building was potentially on fire. And so they sat there quietly choking on the smoke, continuing to fill out the paperwork. 

And this boggles my mind because I guess I have had to come up with my own reality and following other people has led me astray and caused me actual physical, mental, psychological harm so often that I don't look at the other humans to see the appropriate reaction anymore. So it's mind boggling to me to have lived such a life. That you can have that amount of trust in society and other human‘s actions that you can allow them to dictate your own. 

IVY 

 85:07 

Sometimes I wonder if part of the reason for that is that neurotypical people are more dependent on social survivability. I feel like that is a luxury that a lot of neurodivergent people have not really had. In some ways, like yes, to a certain degree we mask for the purposes of social survivability so that we can get by in society, have jobs, do the things that we're supposed to do as functioning adults in our society. But we've also had to deal with, a lot of us anyway, have also had to deal with other threats to our survival that a lot of neurotypical people maybe did not have to deal with. Because that umbrella of neurodivergent like we've talked about before, does extend out to things like PTSD. Going through a trauma does impact you in a very real way, can change the way that you're wired up to a certain degree. 

So for neurodivergent people, I feel like we are not as reliant on other people to tell us what reality is, to tell us what things we should do, shouldn't do, what things work, what things don't work. Because I don't think that for us social survivability is the be all end all. I feel like for a lot of neurodivergent people we've had to deal with bigger survival issues than a lot of neurotypical people have. And I sometimes wonder if that is part of why we are less reliant on the social interactions around us to dictate how we live, how we act, how we think. Because in some ways, like I'm thinking Maslow's hierarchy here a little bit, n some ways that is a luxury. 

Being so focused only on social survivability on some level is a luxury. If you have had to deal with other issues of survival, then social survivability is only one aspect of survival for you. But if all of your other needs have been essentially seen to, maybe social survivability is the be all, end all for you. And so maybe that is part of the reason why neurotypical people tend to be so much more reliant on social perceptions and how they fit into social group and how they fit into society. Maybe that is the be all end all for them because that is the biggest survival issue that they've had to deal with. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. That's just a theory. 

 AUTUMN 

 86:55 

 I think that's a sound theory. I mean, there may be other pieces that play into that, but that would make sense. Maybe this is me being a little bit narcissistic or mean, but I almost feel like that luxury isn't necessarily a good one. Like not having your reality threatened, not having to actually question yourself and your place in the world. I don't know that that's necessarily a good thing.

Because another thing that you often see with neurotypicals is they have an aggressively egocentric worldview. Like you said before, their reality is the reality. And if you're questioning it, you're going to come up against a lot of issues. They're going to probably label you as diagnosable in part.

But I don't know that that's a good thing that you have never had to question it so that you are so, I hate to use this word, but fragile that the potential crushing or changing or altering of your reality makes you so again, aggressive. Because that's what I see it as. 

I see neurotypicals that have difficulty comprehending anything else than them. And when you question societal values or concepts that are regularly accepted, you are not just considered like an idiot or illogical. You do get to the point that you are diagnosable, you have a mental illness, you are abnormal and should potentially be fixed. And that's kind of frightening to me that we are - not we, because I'm not - that people are so attached to a reality that is not necessarily healthy, that has not necessarily been closely examined and chosen, but just was handed down to. That you're willing to become aggressive and violent in order to defend it. 

 IVY 

 88:44 

I definitely see where you're coming from on that, and I definitely agree with a lot of that in a lot of ways. This is something that, I will admit, I find myself torn on sometimes. Because as much as I love being a neurodivergent person and as much as I value the experiences that I've had, even the ones that it really shook my foundations, there is a part of me that sees neurotypical people and on some level envies how much easier certain things are for them. 

And I agree with you. I don't think it's healthy to just never have your reality questioned. And I wouldn't trade my life experiences for anything. I like who I am. I like the way that my brain works. I like how being neurodivergent impacts and influences my life and my mentality in a lot of ways. But it also does come with a lot of challenges that, let's face it, they suck to deal with. 

I am torn in the sense that sometimes I envy neurotypical people, that their worldview is not as convoluted as mine. It's not as complicated. It is much more simple. So I've had some neurotypical friends before, and one of the things that I have noticed is they do have a system for everything. They have an answer for everything. I don't always agree with their answer. A lot of times I don't I don't agree with their answer, I don't agree with their system, but they have one, and it makes their life seem simpler. Not that they don't have challenges, because they do, but reality is not as squishy for them. 

And while I like my reality being squishy, it comes with challenges. While I like being neurodivergent, it comes with challenges. And on some level, I can't begrudge neurotypical people for not wanting to deal with the things that neurodivergent people deal with, because having your foundation nations shaken is deeply challenging and overwhelming. When you have been told by society that this particular thing is a path to happiness. You go to a good school, you grow up, you go to a good college, you get a good job, you make lots of money, you buy a big house, you have a big family, you do all of these things, someday you retire and you get to go on all these vacations to the Bahamas. And this is the path to happiness. When you act actually have to more closely inspect that and see all the ways in which it doesn't actually always end up being happy. And even if it does end up being happy, it often comes at the expense of other people who are less fortunate than you. Like, grappling with all of those things is very difficult and can be very overwhelming and very heart wrenching and gut wrenching. 

And so on some level, I don't begrudge neurotypical people for not wanting their reality to be challenged. In some ways, life is simpler for them. They have a clear-cut path ahead of them. And I feel like for those of us who are neurodivergent, the path has never been clear cut. We've always had to tromp through swamps and weeds and woods and lose our way and find our way back and create our own paths. Like, we've had to be much more resourceful and much more adaptable. But that comes at a cost of life being a lot more difficult in a lot of ways, and it comes at the cost of our internal makeup being a lot more complicated and our version of reality being a lot more complicated. 

So I can understand why neurotypicals would aggressively defend their version of reality, because to grapple with the darker sides of reality would be immensely challenging. Especially if you have to do it later in life, which I think does happen to a lot of neurotypical people. Not everybody, but I think it does happen to a lot of neurotypical people, that they get to a certain age and they realize they did all the things, they followed, all the rules, they followed the script society gave them, and yet they're still not as happy as they thought they were going to be. And sometimes it can completely backfire on them and blow up in their face. They have to confront those challenges to their reality in much harsher ways much later in life, which sucks. 

I mean, I'm personally glad that a lot of my challenges came early on in life because it did better prepare me for dealing with challenges moving forward. But at the same time, I can understand why as an adult, you would not want to have your version of reality and your belief systems and your values challenged. I can understand why you would aggressively defend your belief systems and your values and your version of reality. I don't agree with it, but I can understand the desire to do that.

 AUTUMN 

 93:35 

I understand that desire, too, and I get that it is difficult and challenging. And definitely as adult, but also as a three-year-old child, it's also very difficult as well, especially when you don't have any loving, supportive caregivers that are there to walk you through it. And I guess that's why I will say that I do begrudge neurotypicals a little bit on this particular point, because they get to not question their reality at my expense. 

The aggression that they have and the defense of this reality that they have found, that comes at my expense. Because this reality  isn't very healthy. Societal norms and all of this, these aren't very healthy, and you're just doing them. And they definitely aren't there for me. Like, I am in the swamp and I am in the jungle and I am macheteing my way along things because I am not allowed on your path, because my existence on your path, it doesn't work. And so I don't get to be there. And so I guess this is one of the points at which I do begrudge the neurotypicals a little bit because their privilege of not questioning reality comes at my expense. 

And I mean, this even goes into the fact that I feel like a lot of neurotypicals, nd again, we're not saying every neurotypical, because this is a spectrum, but there are a lot of neurotypicals that they see different as having less value. If you're not the same sexual orientation, if you're not the same religion, if you're not the same color, if you're not the same race, if you're not the same mental health hue that they are, then you are of less value, you are wrong, and they will try to convert you to right. Because again, they can't handle that questioning of their reality. They can't handle anything being different than what they've always been told because, oh my gosh, that would be so difficult to have to grapple with. 

And so if your very existence, which my very existence does cause you to question your reality, then obviously something needs to change. And if it's not going to be your reality, then it has to be me. I have to change. I have to be a diagnosed. I have to be fixed. And so that's where I come in with a little bit of the begrudgement. And I guess I do have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder about that. 

 IVY 

 95:54 

 I have my moments where I have a chip on my shoulder too. I think that is also a very natural thing to feel as a neurodivergent person or anybody that doesn't fit into the most socially acceptable and successful group of people. I can understand having a chip on your shoulder about it. I have my moments too. 

I guess I've gotten so used to trudging through that part of me enjoys the experience. And maybe this is me being a bit of an asshole. Maybe this is how I deal with the chip on my shoulder. I'm not going to lie, I do get some feeling of some sense of superiority, knowing that I am more adaptable, knowing that I am more resourceful, knowing that if shit hits the fan, as Christopher Titus says, I will know to get out of the way. I won't just stand there and let it hit me. 

And to me, some of the tradeoff also comes from the fact that I have seen so many neurotypicals go through their entire life thinking that they're doing great and wonderful, and then they reach a certain age and they realize that they drank the Kool-Aid and it did not give them the intended effects that they thought it was going to. For me, as much as it fucking sucks to deal with the shit that we dealt with growing up and to deal with the mental health problems that I have, I am, on some level, up. 

Thankful that I went through a lot of those experiences when I was at my most malleable, when my neuroplasticity was the highest, when I had the greatest capability to adapt. I would rather get it on the front end personally than get it on the back end. And I feel that way with a lot of things that are unpleasant. Even when it comes to sitting down to a meal. I always eat the thing that I don't like first and then I finish with the thing that I do like. Because if I'm going to have to deal with the bullshit, I want to deal with it more on the front end. Because I feel like dealing with it on the front end leaves the sweet stuff for later, it saves the best parts for last. 

And I feel like that is how I make peace with their version of reality coming at my expense. I feel like that's how I make peace with it, is that yeah, but their version of reality a lot of times does catch up to them in ways that they did not expect. And their values and reality are challenged much later in life when their neuroplasticity is not at their highest, when it is much harder to adapt because you are stuck in your ways. 

I would like to never get stuck in my ways, and I feel like the path that I have been on my entire life set me up pretty well to not get super stuck in my ways. I would like to believe that I will always be able to confront challenges to my reality with some level of maybe defensiveness, but also with some level of openness to other possibilities. And I am sad for neurotypical people I have met that do not have that openness because they've not had to earn it yet. And I think a lot of them will have to earn it later in life and that is. That is not something that I would want. Personally, I'm glad I got it on the front end. It sucked. It was shitty. It has long term ramifications I will always deal with. But man, I feel like I saved the best parts for last.

 AUTUMN 

 99:22 

I definitely hope that's the case, that we are saving the best parts for last. And I do feel like because it feels sometimes like the world is starting to fall apart and unravel a little edge of World War Three and all that sort of stuff and worldwide pandemics. I don't know, maybe you're right. Maybe it is better that we were able to get this on the front end. Because I do feel like there are a lot more people out there that are suddenly having mental health crises that have never actually had to worry about their mental health before. And it is pretty difficult for them because they don't have the tools that we've had because they've never had to learn them. 

All right, so let's move on to the last point in today's episode of neurotypical weirdness that is out there. And this kind of ties into my fact of the day, and that is that neurotypical people definitely seem to have very limited emotional or psychological expression, awareness, possibly depth? We just got done talking about how they've not had to confront a lot of these things and not review a lot of it. So maybe it's just that fact they don't have a lot of awareness of it. Or maybe because they've always flowed well with society, they don't have all these bursty bits inside of them because their gears aren't grinding against the world. 

I don't know. That's the piece that I always come back to is do you just not feel things extremely? Are you not aware that you feel them extremely or do you really just feel very shallowly? Like, are your emotions just not that deep, not that big, not that passionate? And I know that sounds very insulting. 

I don't know. Because one of the things, for example, I'll throw this out here, that always confuses me and I'm sure this isn't all neurotypical people, but I've seen it in enough movies and shows and books is just like a throwaway concept that I assume it's some neurotypical people is they find death arousing. Like when there's a funeral or something, they all want to make out or have sex in a bedroom because when you're confronted with death, you really want to experience life again. And that is never a reaction I've had to grief. 

And part of me wonders, like, do you actually feel sexual and aroused in the face of grief? Or is grief such a big, overwhelming emotion and it's so much bigger than anything you've ever experienced that you are so desirous to escape it that you will turn to anything that you can. Which includes what would be considered typical reckless behavior, such as sex with people you don't even know in the back room of a funeral parlor. You know what I mean? 

Because I do wonder, are you confused about what this feeling is? Like, how deep it is? Because I just don't get it. 

 IVY 

 102:23

And to clarify, we are talking about things in media. We're not talking about people actually doing these things. I don't think people in the real world actually do those things. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like that is kind of a caricature of humanity that for some reason is entertaining to neurotypicals for reasons that I don't understand. 

Another common thing that I see represented in media that I do not fucking get why it is so popular and why neurotypicals love this shit so much: tragic and sad stories, especially love stories like fucking Titanic or The Notebook. Every neurotypical person that I knew fucking loved The Notebook. I didn't watch it because I knew it would probably suck just based on the little bits and pieces that I had heard here and there. 

But I did read all the spoilers because that's what I do. I don't watch movies. I read all the spoilers instead. I don't want to actually spend my time watching it and get emotionally invested and then end up being pissed off later on. So I just read what happens because it's quicker, and I get to my emotional reaction faster. So when I read the spoilers for The Notebook and I realized that at the end, he's just telling her their story because she doesn't remember him anymore, I was angry. I did not see that story as being sweet or romantic or anything along those lines. 

I was pissed that it was portrayed as this great love story because I'm sorry, that's not fucking sweet. That's fucking terrifying. The idea that the person you have spent your entire life with, that you have shared all of these moments with, that you love more than anything in the world, would just forget you or that you would forget them. That's not a sweet story. That's not a good love story. That's fucking depressing and it's fucking terrifying. And I don't understand why that kind of stuff is romanticized. 

That that drives me absolutely up a wall when it comes to neurotypicals and the sort of media that they like to take in because it seems like every sweet love story or animal movie that they love, it's just depressing. It's really depressing. These are not things that are sweet. Why do you guys like depressing stories? Why do you romanticize things that are the worst possible parts of life, the most painful parts of life? I don't understand that at all. Why is that something that's romantic to you?

 AUTUMN 

 104:46 

I definitely agree with this because, okay, I had somebody, it was a neurotypical person, they encouraged me to read The Notebook when I was 18-years-old. Over 20 years later and I am still pissed about this. Because this was back before the Internet was a big thing. You could not look it up. I had to read the whole thing. I read that whole fucking book. I am marred to this day by that. It is not a good book. It is not romantic. It is fucking depressing. 

And that's what I mean. Like, do you not feel things that deeply? Because when I read The Notebook, it resonated with chords of fear and depression and grief that just shake my entire soul. And that's why I don't find it entertaining or sweet or romantic, because the feelings that it elicits, that it strums up against are overwhelming and paralyzing to me. I feel like I'm going to drown in that amount of grief. 

I am in a very happy, loving relationship right now, and the concept of either one of us getting dementia and forgetting one another, it paralyzes me with fear and grief. And so to read something like that, that brings those concepts up, I don't understand how you can look at that positively if you feel at all as passionately and deeply as I do. So that's why I get confused. 

And also, I feel like there's a lot of media out there that's considered really deep or moving or sad that isn't. My go to for this is Adele. I've heard so many neurotypicals be like, oh, my God, Adele, her music's so sad, it's so moving. I'm like, really? Like, she got broke up. That is traumatizing and sad to you? Because I'm like, holy shit, okay then. 

 IVY 

 106:38 

I will admit  I love me some Adele, but it is light music to me. That's like light pop. That's what Adele is to me. I love her voice. I like the sound of her music. But if I'm looking for some deep, cathartic music, I am not going to listen to Adele because even her sad songs are fluffy. My example of that is Lana del Rey. When she was really popular, everybody was like, oh, my, like, her music is so sad and it's so moving. And I'm like, it's not really. I mean, I get what she's going for. I did not find her music to be heavy and cathartic. 

Yeah, I struggle with that too. A lot of things that are considered to be deep and profound, I struggle to understand why they are considered to be deep and profound. I even see a lot of shit like that on social media. Like, people will share these memes, that not funny memes. They're sharing memes that are supposed to be talking about some philosophical concept or about a mental health thing. And it's like the most cliche shit. But no, there's tons of neurotypicals that are like, oh, my God, I never thought about it from this angle. Like, this is so profound. I need to share this with all of you because this is such an important message that we all need to think about more. And I'm like, how have you not thought about that every day of your life? 

I don't know. I try not to go into the space of superiority because I am not a superior being. I'm not a god or even a demigod, I am fuck up just like everybody else. But there are times when I look at the stuff that is popular or that people consider to be profound or thought provoking or deeply touching, and I'm like, this is, this is nothing to me. This is scratching the surface. 

And if anything, the strongest emotion that it provokes for me is just anger. I will never stop being angry about The Notebook, even though I never read the whole book, I never watched the movie. Just reading the fucking synopsis on Wikipedia made me angry. That is about the most you're ever going to get out of me with the stuff that's considered to be deep and meaningful in mainstream culture. And I don't get it. I don't get it at all. 

 AUTUMN 

 108:53 

 The best analogy I can come up with is I feel like for many neurotypicals, emotions are like this really cute badger in a storybook that has tea with Miss Mouse, right? And for me, the badger is fucking real in my garbage can, stinking of fish guts and banana peels and threatening to tear my throat out. And so when they do go on social media with these great, like, oh, my God, I never thought of this. And it's like, oh, did you know badgers have fur? And I'm like, yeah, it smells like fish guts and it clings to your wounds when your throat's ripped out. How do you not know this? 

Which again, makes me question, have you never been attacked by your badgeresque emotions leaping out of a garbage can? Because I have. Which may be why it also seems that neurotypicals seem to not do very well in crisis situations. And I know we bring up Christopher Titus a lot, and Ivy already did in this podcast episode, but he has this bit where he talks about how normal people, they have the toilet back up and they lose it and shoot a bunch of people at Burger King. And I'm sorry, that's kind of what happens. Because you've not had a lot of shit happen to you, and so you don't know how to handle when it does. 

And so when your emotions finally do turn into a badger that rabidly attacks you, you don't know what to do. And I guess at that point, I do feel a little lucky as a neurodivergent, that one) understand how to badger defense against these things. I have badger kwon do black belt. And I also know some really good fucking first aid, because even the badger kwon do is not going to save me from everything. So I can come in and I've got the ointments and the bandages ready for this. And my poor neurotypical counterparts, they're kind of just out bleeding in the alley, horrified and terrified and frozen with the badger still nibbling on them. 

 IVY 

 110:49 

Yeah,  and you know what's interesting to me, too, about the divide between neurotypicals and neurodivergence? It's, like, pretty common among neurodivergents for us to get things like sensory overload to have meltdowns and stuff like that. So neurotypicals looking at that from the outside. They're like, oh, you can't even handle basic things like going to the grocery store. What's wrong with you? 

But then shit really hits the fan. A huge crisis happens. Like, a big car accident happens, and the neurotypicals are just sitting on the sidelines shaking, like, oh, my God, what do we do? What do we do? What do we do? And it's always the neurodivergent people that are getting in there, and they're taking care of stuff, and they're staying really calm in crisis. And it's just interesting to me that divide. They give us so much shit for our sensory overloads, for our meltdowns, for our not wanting to go to the grocery store or deal with social interactions, and they treat us like we're weaklings. If real shit hits the fan, we're the ones who are saving your asses because you have no idea how to deal with this situation, and half the time, you're making it worse. 

Neurotypicals give us a bunch of shit for having our sensory overloads and our meltdowns over things that they consider to be really small and meaningless and shouldn't be an issue, because it's not an issue for me. I don't understand why you have so many problems with this. There's obviously something wrong with you, and there's like this mocking quality to it, and it's like, oh, you're a snowflake. You can't handle anything. 

But it's like something actually really big happens, and we're good, and you all are losing your shit. I don't want to be judgy towards them, but at the same time, I'm like, you give us shit for our tiny meltdowns, but at least we can handle shit when things actually go wrong, because we can control that shit when it's necessary. We have our meltdowns because we're letting off steam and we're venting, and we're dealing with things in bite size amounts. You just wait for everything to pile up and get really bad, and then you have a complete and total meltdown. But that's fine because it's a huge life change. It was a big crisis. It was totally acceptable for me to have a meltdown. There's something wrong of you that you didn't. Why weren't you panicking? What's wrong with you? Don't you care? 

 AUTUMN 

 112:52 

 We do get all the shit and the diagnoses for that, unfortunately. But it is so true, and I think because a lot of them haven't had to question their reality and they haven't had to go through all this, there is a definite lack of personal awareness, and they don't even realize this. They don't understand that they don't have the skills or the capacity to handle these kinds of things, because they've never had to before, and they don't realize they have the issues. 

And so they assume you're the ones with the issues. And they just assume that they are normal and they are healthy and they are the template that we should all be trying to meet. Which isn't necessarily the case, because even in a well-ordered society, shit still hits the fan. And you still need people that are shit free enough because they knew to move, to help clean up that mess. And that's most likely going to be us neurodivergents. Or if you're super unlucky, it's going to be you neurotypicals who are now neurodivergent. Because welcome to PTSD, my friends. 

 IVY 

 114 

I think that is what changes neurotypicals later on in life. Like I was talking about before, they end up with some major crisis later in life because things did not work out the way that they were told they were supposed to work out. And then they do end up with PTSD. And now they're one of us. So we spread like cancer. So enjoy your carefree neurotypical days, because they will not last forever, more than likely. 

Although I will say, in defense of neurotypical people, I have known some neurotypical people that I give them credit, they do try very hard to develop personal awareness, but give them credit for trying. And also, we all have blind spots. I have mine too. I don't know what they are right now, because they are, in fact blind spots, but someday I'll figure it out and I'll feel like a jackass and I'll work on it. And I appreciate the neurotypical people who recognize that while they feel that they are right, there are other people out there that are not them. And they at least try to be understood standing and try to  be self aware enough not to be an oblivious asshole. So I give credit to those neurotypicals because I know they exist. I have met them.

 AUTUMN 

 115:14 

You said, we spread, us neurodivergent, we spread like a cancer. And I'm like, no, we spread like something helpful and awesome. But I can't think of anything else that spreads except for, like, frosting. Like we spread like cold frosting on a warm cake. Where they’re all crumbled? 

 IVY 

 115:29 

 Okay, the one that I can think of is we spread like a fungus, which is actually very helpful. Because we need mushrooms and fungi and mycelium, otherwise this planet would fall apart. So I mean, that probably is more what neurodivergents are actually like. Neurotypical may not want to deal with us directly because fungus is icky and gross, but you need us. That's what it comes down to. You may not like us, but you need us. 

 AUTUMN 

 115:59 

I like that  analogy: we spread like a fungus. And like you were saying though, there are a lot of neurotypicals out there that try and really that's the whole point of today's episode is we want to turn the tables a bit. Because we're not saying as neurodivergent, we're not fucked up. We're not totally normal and healthy, not by a long shot. We just want you to take a look at yourself and be like, you know what, maybe as a neurotypical you're not 100% healthy. Maybe you're a little bit weird and, admit it to yourself, maybe you're a little fucked up. And so maybe we can both try to reach across this table a little bit and meet somewhere in the middle. For today though, let's go ahead and wrap up. Ivy if you want to throw them all our connecty bits so the neurodivergence can commiserate with us and the neurotypicals can get angry at us. 

 IVY 

 116:47 

 There's no such thing as bad publicity, so they say. I guess. I  don't think that's true anymore. I don't think that's true anymore. And yeah, I mean if the neurotypicals want to get mad at mean we'll still take interaction. We want interaction. We like interaction. 

So interact with us at our website www.differentfunctional.com. You can use the contact form to reach us there. You can find us on social media: on Facebook as different functional, on Instagram and TikTok is different_ functional. I don't know if we're going to have a threads account at any point. I'm somewhat resistant to it, but we shall see. And you can also find us or contact us - you can also contact us at our email differentfunctional@gmail.com. 

We would love it if you would leave us a rating, a review. Just spread the word about us. Let people know that you like listening to us. But I mean, hell, let people know that you don't like listening to us. If we insulted you this time, share that with somebody so they can also be insulted, and then they'll tell somebody else. Word of mouth is still going to spread that we exist. We'll take what we can get. So if you could do that, let people know about us, whether you like us or not, that would be great. 

 AUTUMN 

 117:58 

And if you  are contacting us, neurodivergent and neurotypical people, on the note of social media, let me know how you feel about the thumb, the Facebook thumb. If any of you are on the Facebook Messenger, I always describe the thumb reaction as a neurotypical one because I never do it intentionally and I've never met another neurodivergent that will actually just give me a thumb. Because it's like so, like, what the fuck is that about? 

So I need to know if this is a neurotypical or a neurodivergent thing, or just like, I'm fucking weird about the Facebook thumb. So tell me about that. Write to me and let me know. 

 IVY 

I would like to believe that everybody universally hates the thumbs up. That is what I would like to believe. It's probably not true, but I would like to believe that everybody universally hates that thing. Especially in messenger, where you accidentally fucking hit it all the time without meaning to. I can't imagine anybody actually likes the thumb in messenger. There's just no way, right? Nobody enjoys having that little fucker there in messenger because you always accidentally hit it and it's like you're giving a thumbs up to some sad text that somebody sent you about that how horrible of a day they were having. You're like, good job. Good for you. Thumbs up. Nobody wants that thing. Facebook needs to fucking get rid of that. If you want to have it just for a comment reaction on your Facebook feed, fine. But the one in messenger is terrible to all of us. It really needs to go.

 AUTUMN 

 119:23 

 I don't know. I want to think it's terrible for all of us, but I get that reaction a lot from the world. Because I have to do the Facebook account for the customer service job I do and to sell things online, and I get the thumb a lot. So that's kind of why I'm wondering, is it the neurotypicals that love it? I need to know. 

All right, so for today, we will definitely wrap up. Thank you for listening. And as always, remember, different does not mean defective.